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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Texas-y'all
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: Need advice on a condenser problem. |
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I have a 2275 with a Glenn built .010 and a Bosch blue coil. Admittedly, my electrical skills are lacking as well as diagnostic skills. The distributor just burned up the 3rd condenser in a year, and it fried a Compufire that was in a chinese .009 before that. I have replaced the original coil with the blue coil about a year back when I installed the .010.
Every time that the condenser crapped out, the car was idling. Same thing with the Compufire. I swapped the compufire stuff out of the .009 and put points back in it. It is my spare distributor.
I have never burned up a condenser before this, and have 10 years plus driving these cars around....
Would any experts be willing to part with some advice? Thanks
Bill _________________ 1956 Ragtop |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3574 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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If you go to a msd there is no need for a condenser when the points are used to trigger the msd box. Dan |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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What blue coil?
The electrical part of the distributor is very simple. It's just the points, which act as a switch, the condenser and the bolt that passes through the body. If the points is grounded the engine will not start.
I suspect it's the coil. The only brand new blue coil i'd recommend is the Bosch Blue coil from Brazil. The Mexican ones are crap. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Texas-y'all
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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It's a Bosch coil, but I don't know it's origin. _________________ 1956 Ragtop |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Rustforlife wrote: |
It's a Bosch coil, but I don't know it's origin. |
Mexican
Brazilian
I'm using a German one but have use Brazilian with no problems.
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Texas-y'all
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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It's Brazilian. _________________ 1956 Ragtop |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Texas-y'all
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yup. gonna have to start buying condensers in bulk....lol _________________ 1956 Ragtop |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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PM me your address and i'll send a Bosch (German) condenser.
But if it's not a condenser issue it will fail also. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Texas-y'all
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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No need for a ground.
See if you can borrow a coil from a friend. Just about any 12v coil will work with points so it doesn't have to be a Bosch coil. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Fred Winterburn Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013 Posts: 423 Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Need advice on a condenser problem. |
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Rustforlife wrote: |
I have a 2275 with a Glenn built .010 and a Bosch blue coil. Admittedly, my electrical skills are lacking as well as diagnostic skills. The distributor just burned up the 3rd condenser in a year, and it fried a Compufire that was in a chinese .009 before that. I have replaced the original coil with the blue coil about a year back when I installed the .010.
Every time that the condenser crapped out, the car was idling. Same thing with the Compufire. I swapped the compufire stuff out of the .009 and put points back in it. It is my spare distributor.
I have never burned up a condenser before this, and have 10 years plus driving these cars around....
Would any experts be willing to part with some advice? Thanks
Bill |
Bill, I can think of two things that might be the problem. Bad condensers being number 1, A coil or even a poor Mexican Blue is not going to take out a condenser. 2, Unless you know for a fact the condensers have failed, a similar symptom could be a bad distributor ground. A poor ground connection shows up more at idle. It's still a problem at higher speeds but isn't as noticeable. In additon to the actual distributor ground connection to the engine block, make sure the breaker plate (is this a vacuum advance unit?) has a good ground connection for its entire travel. Something else to check. Good luck, Fred |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Need advice on a condenser problem. |
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Fred Winterburn wrote: |
make sure the breaker plate (is this a vacuum advance unit?) has a good ground connection for its entire travel. Something else to check. Good luck, Fred |
It's a Bosch 010 mechanical.
You could run a ground wire from the case to the screw above the BOSCH name plate to ensure there's a good ground.
The distributor clamp should provide a solid ground. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure what your condenser looks like! I take it it shorted out! Kind of a hard thing to say without testing spark to know if it is condenser or something else. I think there are a couple of type of coils. There are coils with about 3.8 ohm primary windings and there are coils with about 2 ohm primaries. Basically 6V and 12 Volt coils, I would imagine they use a different condenser. If condensers are failing I would say it is because your un-able to find the right condenser for your coil. Something in the .25 mf at 1000 Vdc range should work. or .25 mf at 630 volts ac even! I have heard of hunting down the best capacitor for a given coil and point system. Values may range from .05 to about 0.6 microfarad. capacitors are not always the same and with the quality control problems we are having these days with some Chinese brands of auto parts it may be worth trying a different brand and type of condenser all together! When the right condenser is chosen "With Luck" then the Ohms XL cancels the Xc Ohms the EMF on the coil primary will be amplified to it's peak and the Secondary spark will be at maximum energy. Here is a parts house link for: Condensers. For Example for a 12 volt coil, Choose Volkswagen/1974/Beetle/1.6 H4/Ignition/Condenser
IGNITION COIL Function and Testing.
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I did not know for a long time is that the WIRE from the condenser/points to the coil is actually something not to mess with.
Part of the reason that the condenser comes with the wire attached is because the length of the wire is part of how the coil/condenser is "tuned"
This may not be your problem, but keep it in mind. |
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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Texas-y'all
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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modok wrote: |
One thing I did not know for a long time is that the WIRE from the condenser/points to the coil is actually something not to mess with.
Part of the reason that the condenser comes with the wire attached is because the length of the wire is part of how the coil/condenser is "tuned"
This may not be your problem, but keep it in mind. |
I did shorten the wire from the coil to the distributor to get rid of excess.
Glenn, is there a certain length that wire needs to be? _________________ 1956 Ragtop |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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aha!
Usually the wire is included with the points or condenser, or sometimes sold separately. Glenn is more qualified than I to say what brands are best or exactly what gauge of (metric?) wire was used.........??
A lot of the old cars they coiled the excess wire into a neat spiral.........and it turns out that was actually the correct thing to do! I used to think they were being lazy |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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The length of the wire will add a little inductance Xl into the equation but it is small compared to the Xl of the coil. The math says it should not matter much at least not at lower RPM (with points). The real thing is to find a condenser value that will give a good strong spark with your coil. I suspect you have a 6 volt coil with a 12 volt condenser or a 12 volt coil with a 6 volt condenser. The EMF on the secondary will build too high a voltage and can blow the condenser and burn the points too or burn out the Electronics if the condenser is matched it absorbs all the excess energy and delivers it back into the coil. The problem with coil and condensers are that they only match up at some perfect RPM in their case Frequency. Above or below that they are not working perfectly! XL=(2*3.14*F*C) and Xc =1/(2*3.14*F*C) where XL and Xc are in Ohms of resistance and F is the frequency which in our case is related to dwell and (how many times a second the points open) and C is in Micro Farids (it is the value of the capacitor). Because XL and Xc behave as opposites they cancel each other when added trigonometrically, a long wire on the condenser is like adding a little XL it may help at lower rpm but be a detriment at higher rpm, if XL and Xc don't match values then efficiency is lost. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't think it could matter either, but it turns out the values for this and that were just researched by actual testing in some lab at bosche or ect, and the wire was one of the variables. You can even tune it yourself using different length wires and values of condenser based on which side of the points wear more......and I forget which is which, I convert everything to transistor ignition anyway, but that's how they really did it 50 years ago, and if employing 50 year old technology....... |
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Rustforlife Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 588 Location: Texas-y'all
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Modok, The wire that goes from the distributor to the coil is separate from the condenser on the .010 dist. All I need is a gauge and length and I can make one.
Glenn, for the time being can I use a condenser normally used on say a .009? _________________ 1956 Ragtop |
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