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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:46 am Post subject: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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Can anyone recommend a rear disc kit that can retain a working handbrake? My rear disc kit is from smallcar and while the stopping power is good, the handbrake does not hold at all. It's been like this since 2009 and I'm about done with this upgrade. The parking brake can barely hold the van from rolling on level ground. The engine at idle is able to overcome the parking brake and of course it can't hold the van on a slight hill. Cables are lubed and free, actuator appears to be operating in the 'middle' of its range.
Is there any other disc brake kit that has a decent parking brake? I'm inclined to put the rear drums back on.
If you have a rear disc kit that you like, can you do a test for me? Pull the handbrake (at a normal tension, for normal parking) then drive forward a little in 1st gear. When you then push the clutch, does the van stop quickly by the rear brakes?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have Burley's rear kit as well as CVBill.
When assembled properly and tuned it offers incredible stopping power and an excellent emergency brake.
Custom rear brake cables can really help with the e brake action.
Alaric has posted links to a company that makes them up. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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excellent help, thx
found this ongoing thread called
"Who is running rear disc brakes? Like them? Worth it?" that has good info.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Mundopacheco
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2006
Posts: 439
Location: Durango, Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I also have Burley's and it works great.....
Miguel |
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hans j
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2714
Location: Salt Lake City UT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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I built my own and rear brakes hold perfect. Sounds like there could be something wrong with your cables?
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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svenakela
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2006
Posts: 776
Location: Ekerö
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Can anyone recommend a rear disc kit that can retain a working handbrake? My rear disc kit is from smallcar and while the stopping power is good, the handbrake does not hold at all. It's been like this since 2009 and I'm about done with this upgrade. The parking brake can barely hold the van from rolling on level ground. The engine at idle is able to overcome the parking brake and of course it can't hold the van on a slight hill. Cables are lubed and free, actuator appears to be operating in the 'middle' of its range.
Is there any other disc brake kit that has a decent parking brake? I'm inclined to put the rear drums back on.
If you have a rear disc kit that you like, can you do a test for me? Pull the handbrake (at a normal tension, for normal parking) then drive forward a little in 1st gear. When you then push the clutch, does the van stop quickly by the rear brakes? |
Is your setup made out of newer VW calipers? They look like this:
It's a common - and false - belief that they auto adjust. They will do that, but not if they are installed wrong. You must help the caliper piston when installing or replacing the pads. The piston must be pushed out as close as possible to an impossible install. It should be really tight to get the caliper back into position.
Symptom 1: You can pull the hand brake lever on the caliper to max without enough parking brake.
Symptom 2: You can push the brake pedal and immediately get locked rear wheels.
If the calipers are cheap copies, go get better spare calipers or originals from a scrap yard. They usually outperform cheap scheit even if they have been used for thousands of miles.
IF you have those calipers. Trust me, I have been using them since ages on many different cars. My Vanagon has them and it passes MOT with ease.
Good luck, hope it helps! |
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Reventlos
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| I had the Burley rear discs installed on my late Westy. Handbrake was almost useless. Many tried, but no one could fix it. I was told that it pretty much boiled down to physics---30-inch tires on a heavy Syncro Westy with the available clamping area=diminished e-brake holding. A few people suggested hydraulic line locks. I finally went back to drums (complete low-miles rear disc kit available!). |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Cables are lubed and free, actuator appears to be operating in the 'middle' of its range. |
I've pretty much ruled out the "actuation" of the parking brake. It all works good. But it does not stop the disc.
If I reverse, and press the brakes, the van stops HARD. I like the way the discs work with the footbrake, and have noticably better stopping power than the drums.
| Sodo wrote: |
| If you have a rear disc kit that you like, can you do a test for me? Pull the handbrake (at a normal tension, for normal parking) then drive forward a little in 1st gear. When you then push the clutch, does the van stop quickly and positively by the rear brakes alone? |
Can someone (who likes their rear brakes) do this test for me and report back? Maybe a drum brake too?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake! |
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| svenakela wrote: |
| Is your setup made out of newer VW calipers? |
No the calipers don't look like that, calipers look exactly like those on Burleys website.
| Sodo wrote: |
| Cables are lubed and free, actuator appears to be operating in the 'middle' of its range. |
I've pretty much ruled out the "actuation" of the parking brake. Cables pull tight and the brake actuator is not at the end of its travel, it's gripping the discs, just not gripping very hard, it does not stop the disc.
If I reverse, and press the footbrake, the van stops HARD. I like the way the discs work with the footbrake, and have noticably better stopping power than the drums.
| Sodo wrote: |
| If you have a rear disc kit that you like, can you do a test for me? Pull the handbrake (at a normal tension, for normal parking) then drive forward a little in 1st gear. When you then push the clutch, does the van stop quickly and positively by the rear brakes alone? |
Can someone (who likes their rear disc brakes) do this test for me and report back? Maybe those with a drum brake too?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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pedrokrusher
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2011
Posts: 654
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yup, every single set of rear discs I have installed for myself and clients will stall the van in first with the e brake on with four to five clicks.
I have installed SC and Burley kits.
When people complain of no e brake or weak e brake from these kits I have been chalking that up to improper installation or tuning.
Sorry, mine work great. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Yup, every single set of rear discs I have installed for myself and clients will stall the van in first with the e brake on with four to five clicks.
I have installed SC and Burley kits.
When people complain of no e brake or weak e brake from these kits I have been chalking that up to improper installation or tuning.
Sorry, mine work great. |
4 to 5 clicks, good info
I'll count clicks but whatever the number is, I pull as hard as I can on it (and it's not out of clicks) and still my van rolls very easily with a very slight hint of braking. Smallcar installed mine.
Can you describe the 'tuning' you've done? Any thoughts about the pads material choice? I have the original that came from smallcar.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
Yup, every single set of rear discs I have installed for myself and clients will stall the van in first with the e brake on with four to five clicks.
I have installed SC and Burley kits.
When people complain of no e brake or weak e brake from these kits I have been chalking that up to improper installation or tuning.
Sorry, mine work great. |
4 to 5 clicks, good info, I'll count clicks but whatever the number is, I pull as hard as I can on it, and it's not out of clicks, and still the van will roll very easily. Smallcar installed mine.
Can you describe the 'tuning' you've done? Any thoughts about the pads material choice? I have the original that came from smallcar. |
Sure.
I use drilled and coated rotors.
Custom sized brake cables.
Pagid pads.
ATE super blue fluid.
And most of all I make sure that the caliper is on the side it was designed to be on.
This is more important for dual piston calipers and when not done, the braking feel is not how I prefer it or how anyone I have installed brakes for prefers it.
Since SC installed the brakes, I feel it is in your best interest to deal with them directly and have them supply a system working the way you would like it.
I would prefer to not get in the middle as I have been there before and do not enjoy it.
The system they offer works.
Getting it installed properly is the issue here. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
The system they offer works.
Getting it installed properly is the issue here. |
Very good to know.
I put a lot of time & energy into these brakes when they were new, and no joy from the handbrake. I loosened mounting bolts, shifted them around a little, straightened the cable routing. Aside from pad material I don't think much more can be done with this kit but will go at it again.
WRT single piston calipers. A single piston caliper could be self energizing I suppose, will look at it with that in mind. Will test the hand-brake power rolling backwards, see if any difference from forward.
Will report back after replacing the cables which are now 4 years old (but look 8 years old),,,,,to be sure all the pull is making it to the caliper.
thx again
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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svenakela
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2006
Posts: 776
Location: Ekerö
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Either you have bad faulty calipers or there is a tuning to do. Like said, you must help the calipers to be self adjusting.
The wire should be loose enough to let the lever go back to its fullest stop. It really should be at the stop, no play at all.
The first click on the handbrake and the wire should start moving the caliper lever. Yes, no sloppy wires. Also as I wrote before you must install the caliper with the pads tight. Otherwise the handbrake actuator inside the caliper will be one step after all the time on the internally mechanical "threaded" push rod, and will never be able to push out the piston enough. |
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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:27 am Post subject: |
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The information that I received in the past from some Samba members is that the custom e brake cable and housing is the solution to this problem.
_________________
1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| madspaniard wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| When people complain of no e brake or weak e brake from these kits I have been chalking that up to improper installation or tuning |
Sorry but me and others with this issue don't agree with this. In my case, same as Reventlos above, my van has gone thru two of the most reputable shops in the Bay Area plus a couple of individuals. Still no grip from ebrake on my Audi-based rear disk brakes. Kit was installed by the top Vanagon shop in my area. They are supposed to know what they are doing. There has to be something else besides tuning or installation because we have gone down that road one too many times. You have people here telling us they have tried everything and still no luck, even going back to drums out of frustration. I wish some of you that have had success could take a look at my case because I'm already out if options other than going back to drums. The only pattern that I have notice so far is that most of us with this issue own late Westy vans. Not sure that makes sense.
Sodo, please report on your findings after you fiddle with it. |
All of my vans are late vans, Syncros and or Westfalia vans.
Being detailed oriented, reading between the lines and searching for answers may not be a strong suit of these "reputable shops" you speak of.
I hear the same thing, day in and day out about suspension tuning issues?
Plenty of very useful information gets posted in these forums daily....
Whether people or shops use this information is out of my hands.
Actually, one correlation I see time and time again with easily fixed issues are that most happen to vans residing in the State of California 
Some of these shops seem to be making a killing on work that is sub par in the eyes of this humble wrench.
Search, read, apply is the best advice I can give.
I will also add that "Audi based" rear kit implies separately purchased parts, not a kit purchased from a vendor.
Am I right?
If so, I am not even sure the proper parts have been assembled. |
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madspaniard
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Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, it must be a California thing. 
As I mentioned above, I think the ticket is custom e brake and housing, which means installing a kit you purchased from a vendor using your van's original cable is just not enough.
As far as I know, the kits sold by vendors are also made by separately purchased parts. Yes, proper parts were assembled. Again, there are more people out there with this issue, not just me.
_________________
1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali
Last edited by madspaniard on Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| madspaniard wrote: |
Oh yeah, it must be a California thing.
As I mentioned above, I think the ticket is custom e brake and housing. |
Yup, I shared that with you some time ago.
It seems that no one is paying any mind to the basic brake installation advice and tuning suggestion about clinching up the piston while installing offered here as well.
If the brakes are just slapped on and you are whisked away to the cash register, there lies part of the problem. |
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madspaniard
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Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| If the brakes are just slapped on and you are whisked away to the cash register, there lies part of the problem. |
Agree, something that should also be said when you purchase one of these kits, you are assuming everything will work fine in your van out of the box. No word you need to change the e cable. Sure more experienced peeps figure this out during installation but we are not all experienced mechanics here.
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1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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