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Rear shock absorbers...again
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

Ok, I stuck my neck out and ordered a KYB KG5410 from amazon, and I don't understand what is probably the date mfg info. on the bottom of the shock. But if I've figured it out-----I think I've been taken.

The number is 554205----so what does that mean? Does that mean April 2, 2005. Bob
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Ok, I stuck my neck out and ordered a KYB KG5410 from amazon, and I don't understand what is probably the date mfg info. on the bottom of the shock. But if I've figured it out-----I think I've been taken.

The number is 554205----so what does that mean? Does that mean April 2, 2005. Bob



I'm not 100% sure of the modern date codes. I will try to post some pics of known vintage date codes from a set I have in the am.

But.....what color are they? What did the box look like? And did they have string leashes holding them compresses with leather pads.....lr did they come fully extended in the box?
Ray
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

No--it did not come fully extended. It is exactly like the picture classic camper posted last August. The box appears to be a factory box, black KYB Gas Adjust box, white lettering, and some foreign identification listings. Has a sticker on the end with bar code, labeled KYB KG 5410 with the number 554026 which I think is the mfg. date code. The shock is grey with the red sticker.

As for physical appearance---it all looks good, new and shines.

It has the nut on top, and there is only about 3 in of the shaft showing.
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

Usually....a date code.....if it has one....would be on the shock itself stamped into the lower or upper body.

On one hand.....the color of the part is current....so if they are old.....they are not really old. I have an unused set of KYBs in the original part number for 411/412.....with the tie downs.....white with red decals......which at this point are known to be made in about 1989 or so. Sadly other than for giggles snd grins.....it would not be worth installing mine.

But...bear in mind.......when I started first suspecting the age issues with shock absorbers.....and then found a jobber who had been in the shock and brake industry for 40 years and was nice enough to explain the technology and verify that my suspicions were correct........basically I was driving all over the country in a 412 as my daily driver......and having to buy every part NOS.....and goong through shocks and struts at LEAST once a year.

But.....at that point in time......say....1995-1998......the rear shocks I was able to get were made between 1986 and 1989.....that means by 1996 they were 7-10 years old. At that age.....I found that all of them still worked fine.....but in about one out of 3 (went through three sets in five years) the lifespan was short.....like 4-6 months.

Bear in mind I was putting in 50-60,000 miles per year....some years more. So getting 1.3 to 1.5 years from shocks of that technology.....was good. Getting 25,000 miles or less.....is low.

So......your shocks are not "ancient" but may have been on the shelf for a while.

Where did you buy them?. The last year listing that I see for the E150 for these is 1991......and with zillions on the road and 10 years minimum they were made for replacement parts through mid 2000s minimum.

They fit E-150s from 1975 through 1991. I would bet they are still in production.

The key is to bolt them on and excercise them asap. You may get lucky. Ray

EDIT: Just to b sure that what I am trying to get across is clear:

The worry with older shocks is not the same exact issue as old brake hydraulic parts. With those....they may not operate at all with age.

With the shocks, there are only two worries with age.

1. That the rubber top shaft seal being one of the only rubber parts in the shock....with age...usually age and poor storage etc....the upper seal can have a short life. What this means is that if the shock is operating fine out of the box....short lifetime may mean that in 15-20k miles its leaking fluid.

Experience with KYB shocks (and others).....as compared to strut cartridges...has shown me that that the shocks have a low risk of this being the issue...call it 15-10% risk if I had to make a stab at it.

The front strut cartridges however...when they are too old....about 60-70% have thee upper seal leak issue.

2. And this is KYB gas-a-just specific... (and some other shock brands that have the same design....monotube with a floating gas piston)....with age sitting on the shelf....the issue is that gas can start to migrate from one side of the gas chamber to the other.

This does not mean that the shock will not work when installed....except in rare cases where the gas migration is so complete that the nitrogen forms a foam in the oil on the other side causing blockage to the valving and creating kind of a hydraulic lock.

What it means is that the shock will be stiffer than normal...and this is the pattern of age and eventual death that KYB gas-a-just and other similar designs have with age...even when installed new.
I have never had one fail where it no longer absorbs shocks...meaning the car gets bouncy.
What it means is that as the shocks age toward inevitable replacement....say a 40-50k mile life.....they get stiffer...not softer.

A 30-50k replacement mileage is normal on this type of shock.....on our cars. This does not mean the shock cannot or will not last 60-80k miles.....just that they tend to become intolerable by about 50k maximum.

Also....our vehicle works this shock harder and for a longer part of its available stroke ...than the Econoline 150 van. The van has huge springs, a short stroke with stubby A-arms. Ours has a very long wishbone in comparison....with a longer stroke and very high leverage.

I destroyed a set of Rancho Rs9000's made for an E-150 in 6 months on my 412. Destroyed. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

It was mentioned earlier that the nut on top of the shock should be removed before installation. It looks to be a permanent part-----does that have to come off?

BTW I purchased this shock from Amazon for $10.00 plus shipping. I knew it was a gamble, but maybe it's ok. I'll see what happens. My car doesn't get a lot of driving anymore. It's a "keepsake" with a lot of memories, and some rough experiences in the mountains of Colorado, and Wyoming. The car has survived without any damage, and it's in good condition. I drive it now and then because I love it, and want to keep it's juices flowing. Took it to shows, but now shows don't have a class for type 4's, and want me to show it as a type 3, and I absolutely refuse to do that. So now and then I show it, but not for competition, because it is NOT A TYPE 3. Bob















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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
It was mentioned earlier that the nut on top of the shock should be removed before installation. It looks to be a permanent part-----does that have to come off?

BTW I purchased this shock from Amazon for $10.00 plus shipping. I knew it was a gamble, but maybe it's ok. I'll see what happens. My car doesn't get a lot of driving anymore. It's a "keepsake" with a lot of memories, and some rough experiences in the mountains of Colorado, and Wyoming. The car has survived without any damage, and it's in good condition. I drive it now and then because I love it, and want to keep it's juices flowing. Took it to shows, but now shows don't have a class for type 4's, and want me to show it as a type 3, and I absolutely refuse to do that. So now and then I show it, but not for competition, because it is NOT A TYPE 3. Bob

NO. The nut at the top is correct. It is simply a design change from some of the 1990s shocks.

There is the highest chance these shocks will be just fine. I would install them.

Yes.....its not just the fact that they lump type 3 and 4 together at shows.....the vasy majority of ACVW people don't know there is a difference. About 99% of the people I meet who see my car .....the first thing they say is "oh a fastback. ...I used to have one"......I have to slap them and point out the differences. Ray















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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

One more question-----What about the piston not extended on these shocks? If it needs to be extended to install-----HOW? Don't want to do something to cause damage. Bob
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
One more question-----What about the piston not extended on these shocks? If it needs to be extended to install-----HOW? Don't want to do something to cause damage. Bob


So....the shocks still have the "sling" made of string and leather on them rigjt?

When you cut that string.....they extend on their own under gas pressure.

Read my notes on installation. You may want to keep the string on until you get the shock under the car and inside of the spring and the hole in the trailing arm before you the string.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

No there is no sling or strap. It is exactly like the picture of a shock shown by Classic Camper. Also if you notice all adds with pictures of the shock show it with no strap, and it is not extended. This puzzles me-----it seems with no strap the piston would extend. Bob
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
No there is no sling or strap. It is exactly like the picture of a shock shown by Classic Camper. Also if you notice all adds with pictures of the shock show it with no strap, and it is not extended. This puzzles me-----it seems with no strap the piston would extend. Bob



Thats why I assumed it had a strap because you noted they are compressed. If they are not strapped down.....and not extended......they are likely not operational.

These are high pressure gas shocks. There have been some KYB over the last couple years have come fully extended ....probbably due to changes/improvements inside.
Ray
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

Well I'm sure you've all seen crazy things happen, but this is a good one on me. I ordered KYB KG 5410 shocks at a very low price----knowing it would be a gamble at $10.00 each. Well I received them a couple weeks ago, and opened one box, it was the usual grey 5410 you see now---no strap. Today I just got around to opening the other box, and guess what? It's a 5410, but white with the strap. Now I have a white one and a grey one.

Since there isn't much money involved, I'm willing to install them together as long as there isn't any potential problem, and see how long they last or if they react in any different way.

So what are your thoughts on this matter? Bob
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Well I'm sure you've all seen crazy things happen, but this is a good one on me. I ordered KYB KG 5410 shocks at a very low price----knowing it would be a gamble at $10.00 each. Well I received them a couple weeks ago, and opened one box, it was the usual grey 5410 you see now---no strap. Today I just got around to opening the other box, and guess what? It's a 5410, but white with the strap. Now I have a white one and a grey one.

Since there isn't much money involved, I'm willing to install them together as long as there isn't any potential problem, and see how long they last or if they react in any different way.

So what are your thoughts on this matter? Bob


Excellent!

There should be no safety issues. It will be nice to see if there are differences in the old versus new version and see if you get lucky on the old one.

Things improve all the time. KYB may not be Koni.....but they make a well engineered product and they aren't stupid......so of they have changed or improved things enough inside of their shocks ro not have to tie them down to prevent leakage.....they may also have less issues with shelf life.

As I get further along on my car....I will also have results to post. I have KYB gas a just original part # shocks on the rear of my 412.

They were installed in about 1999 or 2000. They drove for maybe 10k miles before I parked it for a blown engine. So they have been sitting for maybe 16 years. I can test them....drive on them.....and then....I have another set of them...NOS.....bought in maybe 1998......still in box with straps attached. I can install those and see if they work. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

Question: Ever since I replaced my shocks I've had a worry.. On the KYB shock the top shaft doesn't have a squared end to allow tightening of the nuts. Is it possible the top half of the shock twisted some in tightening the top nuts? If it did is the shock ruined? Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Question: Ever since I replaced my shocks I've had a worry.. On the KYB shock the top shaft doesn't have a squared end to allow tightening of the nuts. Is it possible the top half of the shock twisted some in tightening the top nuts? If it did is the shock ruined? Bob


No it should not burt it. The insides of the shock are micro honed smooth. Now.....many thousands of miles down the line with some wear.....turning the body may have some issues after the piston sealing rings have worn in.

I noticed that ommission off and on over the years. Last time I found those "flat" missing.....I put them on with a dremel so they would fit my shock absorber socket. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

I recently replaced the rear shocks on my car, but haven't driven it much until yesterday. Yesterday there was a lot of clicking noise coming from what seemed to be the shocks I checked the mountings, and all was good and tight. The noise seems to be with what I would think is the action of the shocks, or springs. Makes me wonder if I could have caused a movement on the spring during installation. The springs look OK to me. These are KYB KG 5410 shocks. I haven't had a passenger yet to sit in back, and see if the noise is coming from both sides.

I mentioned awhile back I bought a bargain price shock from Amazon for $10.00, and now that is a question in my mind.

Also I noticed that the bolts on the original shocks were to small for the bushings on the bottom of the new shocks. I used a 1/2 inch bolt which seemed to fit perfectly, and made rubber bushings to make the difference in the width instead of the stack washers. Could it be the 1/2 inch bolt is causing it---it seemed to be a perfect fit. Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

There are a couple of locations that can make noise. And....you will probably hear it most on small high frequency ripples at low speed......when the shocks oscillate up and down rapidly....instead of in big movements like over large bumps.

1. Check that the bolt you use is not threaded in the section that is going through the bushing tube.

2. Just be sure that the top nut is not ciming loose. If thd two bushings between the thrust washers are not compressed to keep the rod centered...it will rattle side to side. In the ond days they used a nut and a jamb nut.

NOTE: this last one is most probably what it is.

3. Using rubber instead of a stack of washers is the wrong way to go. On the original shocks....they had a steel tube bushing that ran side to side. This was necessary. It keeps the shocks centered.....and most importantly. ....keeps the walls of the tube that is part of the trailing arn that the shock is bolted to.....from squeezing inward when you tighten the nut.
The trailing arm tube will flex as you drive....and cause the nut to loosen up....allowing it the bolt to rattle up and down and side to side a small amount.


Last things to check since you probably had quite a few thngs loose wben you installed the shocks........are the outer end links in the sway bar and the center chassis mounts for it. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

Thanks Ray, the top nuts are tight. The only place a rattle could be coming from in the shocks is at the bottom. I'll replace the rubber bushing I made with a washer stack, and see if that helps.

Also your suggestion about the sway bar certainly deserves consideration. I'll check that out. Don't quite understand how installing shocks would affect the sway bar, except for the suspension hanging down before raising it to remove the shock. Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Thanks Ray, the top nuts are tight. The only place a rattle could be coming from in the shocks is at the bottom. I'll replace the rubber bushing I made with a washer stack, and see if that helps.

Also your suggestion about the sway bar certainly deserves consideration. I'll check that out. Don't quite understand how installing shocks would affect the sway bar, except for the suspension hanging down before raising it to remove the shock. Bob


Typically you need to loosen at least the ends of yhe swaybar to replace shocks. Just saying to check them for tightness. They make a clicking noise when thr end links are loose. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

OK, I did the stack washer change, but still have the same problem. Just a visual check of the sway bar looks OK. But you say the ends of the sway bar could be loose from installing shocks? The ends of the sway bar have connection like the top of a shock. I guess you can get to the top of it.

Is there a way to determine if the noise is coming from the shocks? Would it be wrong or indifferent to just loosen the top of the shocks, and basically put them out or working order, and see if the noise is still there. If so -- of course it isn't coming from the shocks. Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
OK, I did the stack washer change, but still have the same problem. Just a visual check of the sway bar looks OK. But you say the ends of the sway bar could be loose from installing shocks? The ends of the sway bar have connection like the top of a shock. I guess you can get to the top of it.

Is there a way to determine if the noise is coming from the shocks? Would it be wrong or indifferent to just loosen the top of the shocks, and basically put them out or working order, and see if the noise is still there. If so -- of course it isn't coming from the shocks. Bob


So....when you replaced the shocks....you did not remove either the two brackets on the chassis or the end links? In the future....I would not do it that way. Its a lot of spring pressure.....and if it unloads further....which is will when the top or bottom of the shock is taken loose.....it can bend the outer links. Yes there is a lock nut on top of a thick washer in the apex of the two legs of each trailing wishbone.

Also.....is the cross bolt that goes through the bottom eye of the shock a dead fit? It needs to be the exact size and not threaded on the inside of the tube. It can set up a rattle.

Also the bushings at the top of the shock.....its stack up should go like this....top of shock body--- dished washer with dished edges facing away from the rubber bushing.------rubber bushing with stepped side facing the body----the chassis----stepped rubber bushing with stepped side facing the chassis-----dished washer with dish edges facing away from the rubber bushing.-----top lock nut or nut with a jamb nut.

You need to get the top nut pretty tight and compress the bushings quite a bit....if not....combined with any movement from the bottom end it will cause the bushings to slip from side to side and the stud on top to rattle against the edges of the hole in the chassis. Ray
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