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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22651
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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 Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| Quote: |
| We did this by soldering together 150 recycled batteries into one super battery ( |
This was a really, really poor idea and Im sorry I missed it in the original post.
A group 24 battery has one KiloWatt hour of energy stored in it...thats works out to about 3.6MJ of energy. Thats a lot of energy. Respect batteries as the bombs that they are.
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Last edited by Abscate on Thu May 19, 2016 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HastaAlaska
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Joined: November 22, 2012
Posts: 1420
Location: Off Grid
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
after all the bullshit you've been through, why on earth would you drop the ball on the single nicest component that bus has? I mean, really? so your worn out nose cone will leak, and possibly cause shifting issues. I am beginning to think that you are your own worse enemy on a race straight to the bottom....
but, it's your call. think of all of those that just helped you to fix the trans issue in a proper way. you have just slapped them all in the face by re using that nose cone. if you get it together and there is an issue, I see rancho giving you 2 middle fingers for not doing the repair correctly.
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Rancho told me to swap it, they said if the play is not bad I can swap it or they can build me a new one and send it to me. The two mechanics that are doing the work (who have actually seen the old nose cone) also said that it is OK ro reuse, the wear is not significant. It was the R&P that was damaged on my old tranny not the nose cone.
| Globespotter wrote: |
| Hmm. The lesson I am getting here is to not trust a charge controller if you are storing a bus in freezing temps for a period of time. |
Agreed. If you are using Lead Acid batteries, they are less volatile when overcharged.
| Abscate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We did this by soldering together 150 recycled batteries into one super battery ( |
This was a really, really poor idea and Im sorry I missed it in the original post. |
The technology worked great for 18 months, and it is still working for many other applications around the world. No regrets about building the battery. The charge controller needs some redundancy for version 2.0
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Globespotter
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Joined: February 16, 2012
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Location: Newmarket, ON
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HastaAlaska
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Joined: November 22, 2012
Posts: 1420
Location: Off Grid
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| Globespotter wrote: |
| If it was me, there is no way I would be trying that again anytime soon. You're just lucky you were not sleeping in the bus when it happened. |
I know what you're saying, it does make me nervous to have all the batteries that I need to be able to make the videos off grid, but I do think that Lithium Ion is the best technology that is currently available.
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Globespotter
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Joined: February 16, 2012
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66311
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Joined: December 31, 2006
Posts: 1477
Location: Olive Branch MS
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| Globespotter wrote: |
Hmm. The lesson I am getting here is to not trust a charge controller if you are storing a bus in freezing temps for a period of time.
Think it would be wise to remember this one, especially charging a battery inside a bus.
I use battery tenders on my vehicles to keep the standard batteries charged in the winter so will need to keep an eye on them - especially the bug. |
He stated they are not sure what's caused it more than once and implied that it may become evident iirc the first response.
So... I knowing nothing about building battery fires take away the need to bombproof/fireproof one of these things regardless of freeze or thaw.
Basically agreeing with you with the added distinction. |
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telford dorr
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Joined: March 11, 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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Lithium ion batteries are nasty pieces of work if not treated properly. They cannot stand either undercharging or overcharging, or any physical abuse. If overcharged, they plate out metallic lithium on the anodes. Metallic lithium will spontaneously combust if exposed to air. Using water to try to put it out is as effective as using a 5 gallon can of gas to put out an engine fire.
Two mistakes:
1 - soldering the batteries. The heat of soldering melts and/or distorts the plastic seals inside the cell which keeps the chemistry contained, essentially ruining the cell. The correct way to connect the cells is by using a dual-pinned spot welding tool (like the original packs used).
2 - tying too many cell strings in parallel. While this is doable, the failure of any one cell will cause a cascade failure as the other strings of cells will dump their energy into the failed cell string. You can guess what happens next. (Oh wait - you already know...)
One other thing: paralleled cells need to be identical in their charge/discharge characteristics, otherwise bad things happen. The commercial battery builders use cells from the same production lot to do this. Assembling random cells into a pack is fraught with peril...
Lithium ion technology has a history of this sort of failure, as can be seen from news stories of Boeing aircraft having battery fires, about commercially made Li-ion battery packs burning in checked baggage, of hoverboards catching on fire as they are being ridden, of Tesla vehicles burning to the ground after running over metal objects which then puncture the battery pack, etc., etc.
While the energy density of Li-ion technology is impressively high, it comes at a cost. In this case, a bus...
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'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
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When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
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Last edited by telford dorr on Fri May 20, 2016 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Abscate
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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When Boeing FUBARS it, you get an indicator of how tough the issues are.
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Abscate
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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When Boeing FUBARS it, you get an indicator of how tough the issues are.
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HastaAlaska
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TomWesty
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Joined: November 23, 2007
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Location: Wyoming,USA
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| HastaAlaska wrote: |
| telford dorr wrote: |
| Lithium ion batteries are nasty pieces of work if not treated properly. |
Do you think it is possible to use Lithium Ion batteries off grid safely? Lead Acid doesn't offer enough juice for my needs. |
Yes, just not in the configuration you were using. Perhaps some batteries for like a powered wheelchair or electric bike would work. Telford knows more about this kind of stuff than I do.
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| TomWesty wrote: |
| HastaAlaska wrote: |
| telford dorr wrote: |
| Lithium ion batteries are nasty pieces of work if not treated properly. |
Do you think it is possible to use Lithium Ion batteries off grid safely? Lead Acid doesn't offer enough juice for my needs. |
Yes, just not in the configuration you were using. Perhaps some batteries for like a powered wheelchair or electric bike would work. Telford knows more about this kind of stuff than I do. |
Might see how the aviation industry solved their problems.
Then use commercial battery pacs. with thermal cut outs and cooling plates.
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telford dorr
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Joined: March 11, 2009
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Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| HastaAlaska wrote: |
| Do you think it is possible to use Lithium Ion batteries off grid safely? Lead Acid doesn't offer enough juice for my needs. |
It's difficult, at best. The electric car manufacturers seem to do it without killing anyone (so far), but then they've spent thousands of hours in engineering time to do it. IIRC, Tesla battery packs are comprised of 7000 common "18650" cells (Google for details).
I've noted that the charge controllers used in computer Li-ion packs are quite sophisticated, to the point of having special fuses which can be blown by the controller on demand, should it determine that auto-destruct is imminent.
Maybe the trick would be to make up a bunch of smaller battery packs and then just use them one at a time, switching them out as they're depleted. This would avoid paralleling cells, and the energy content would be less should something go wrong. Apparently, it's not too hard to make a twin-pin battery tab spot welder. Again, Google for details.
I'm surprised that lead-acid isn't sufficient for your needs. I'd think a pair of paralleled new group sized 42 deep-cycle batteries would do the trick.
If I was going to use a large Li-ion pack, I'd weld up a steel case for it to contain any flames, and equip it with a handle so it could be ejected out the door should it misbehave. And I'd make a home for it on the bus roof.
What you need is the little EX-350 Honda generator I have that they used to make. It's 350 watts, really small, and pretty quiet. It will run for hours on a cup of fuel. Has one 120 volt AC receptacle and a 12 volt DC output for charging batteries. I see them on ebay periodically. Only downside is it's two-cycle, so you have to mix oil with the gas. [One trick with generators is to store them "dry" (without fuel, and the carb drained). Otherwise, over several months, the fuel evaporates and gums up the carb something terrible.]
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'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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HastaAlaska
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Joined: November 22, 2012
Posts: 1420
Location: Off Grid
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
I'm surprised that lead-acid isn't sufficient for your needs. I'd think a pair of paralleled new group sized 42 deep-cycle batteries would do the trick. |
Thanks for the info Telford. The computer I edit on draws 7.7 amp and I work on it for 8 hours a day. the generator would do the trick, but I would prefer to be living off solar, so that is the why I am leaning towards the batteries. As you probably know, the Li-ion cells are happier when they are depleted than the lead acid. I've been through a few deep cycle batteries and they don't offer as much working time as that one Li-ion brick. I'll be researching more into this next year when I look to fit out another expedition vehicle for Kombi Life 2.0
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HastaAlaska
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Joined: November 22, 2012
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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I'm working on the engine today, just had the helicoils flown into whitehorse so I'm working on the loose head (1/2)
Noticed that the M8 cam bolt on the case is also pulling. I don't think I have a tap long enough to get down in there. Has anyone ever had this problem and how have they solved it?
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HastaAlaska
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Joined: November 22, 2012
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Location: Off Grid
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| HastaAlaska wrote: |
I'm working on the engine today, just had the helicoils flown into whitehorse so I'm working on the loose head (1/2)
Noticed that the M8 cam bolt on the case is also pulling. I don't think I have a tap long enough to get down in there. Has anyone ever had this problem and how have they solved it? |
The camshaft bolt in question is the top one. I'm hoping that the fact that it has a bottom nut and bolt and also one of the main case bolts it shouldn't be too much of a problem that is is starting to pull and can't be torqued, what do you think?
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Manfred58sc
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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Honda Gen-verter:quiet, efficient, affordable. Solar is best for homes with advanced charge controllers. I did solar install for 10 years and saw many battery failures. All the above info is correct, proper charging and controlling can be technically tricky. Live and learn.
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Abscate
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| HastaAlaska wrote: |
| telford dorr wrote: |
I'm surprised that lead-acid isn't sufficient for your needs. I'd think a pair of paralleled new group sized 42 deep-cycle batteries would do the trick. |
Thanks for the info Telford. The computer I edit on draws 7.7 amp and I work on it for 8 hours a day. the generator would do the trick, but I would prefer to be living off solar, so that is the why I am leaning towards the batteries. As you probably know, the Li-ion cells are happier when they are depleted than the lead acid. I've been through a few deep cycle batteries and they don't offer as much working time as that one Li-ion brick. I'll be researching more into this next year when I look to fit out another expedition vehicle for Kombi Life 2.0 |
That's a one KW hour power draw for a computer per day. That's a crazy amount of power. You can't do that with solar in a mobile application as you would need 4kW hour in panels to keep up.
Generator needed.
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HastaAlaska
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Joined: November 22, 2012
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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That's a one KW hour power draw for a computer per day. That's a crazy amount of power. You can't do that with solar in a mobile application as you would need 4kW hour in panels to keep up.
Generator needed.[/quote]
my current single panel puts out 5 amps under good light. A couple of these 120W panels should give me a decent amount of power. Storing it is the problem for me at the moment.
Also remember, this time of year in Alaska, the sun doesn't set 
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timvw7476
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Joined: June 03, 2013
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Stranded on the way to ALASKA! |
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| HastaAlaska wrote: |
That's a one KW hour power draw for a computer per day. That's a crazy amount of power. You can't do that with solar in a mobile application as you would need 4kW hour in panels to keep up.
Generator needed. |
my current single panel puts out 5 amps under good light. A couple of these 120W panels should give me a decent amount of power. Storing it is the problem for me at the moment.
Also remember, this time of year in Alaska, the sun doesn't set [/quote]
battery pack?
we don't need no stinkin' bus-burning battery pack! |
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