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Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally)
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dawie
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any update Ray? Good to have you back on the forum.
From another post:
"My entire front suspension is on my work benches stripped to bare metal. It all gets painted in the next week. Every last nut bolt and bushing is new. "
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I am trying to limit to no more than 1 hour per week total....for a while....on the forums. Its not just the reading time....its the thought processing, researching a reply etc. I am consulting and contracting full time now so I have to avoid as much distraction time as possible during the day. The past two years there are too many projects not finished yet.

But it is time for an update. So at first glance one would think little has been done on the 412. It is still up on blocks. But....this is what has been done:
Total strip/dissassembly, paint, refill, reseal, adjustment of steering box
Made new radius arm donuts and centering rings and added UHMW wear rings
Made/installed delrin control arm bushings
Ground out the adjustment gaps for caster and camber and welded in the necessary fittings for eccentrics on sub-frame
Rebuilt idler arm unit with new bronze bush and grease fitting
Rebuilt center link....working on some cool seals right now
Rebuilt the dual bracket assembly for the steering damper so now it has brand new dual factory steering dampers
Rebuilt and repainted calipers including new caliper half seals
NOS Zimmerman cross drilled rotors with baked epoxy finish
New German rotor seals and new Timkin bearings and races with Mystic JT-6 grease
Stripped and sealed gas tank
New gas tank filler boots with stripped, treated and epoxied metal parts for filler neck
New welded in sway bar bracket strengtheners
Rebuilt struts with Audi mod and Gr 2 cartridges , welded composite strut bushing plate using symmetrical old bolt pattern with 1974 and on bushing and bearing...new with UHMW glide rings...lowered a total of 1.25 inches.....very tight....with new very nice strut boots. They look like factory and fit the factory bump stops with a couple of simple mods....and they cost about $10 each at Autozone.

Most of the strut work including the Audi Mods were done 12 years ago...but I made some adjustments and improvements and re-did everything and stripped it to bare metal for proper paint.

And I am down to the tie rods....which I am doing a sectional study of several old and new lnes right now. It looks like the very best out there will be the TRW/MOOG.....and they are on sale at rockauto for $4 each.

The sectioned pictures of the tie rods is an interesting study. There are a zillion improvements in this day and age in tie rod materials and finishes and accuracy of build.....but there is really only three style of inner construction
1. TRW/MOOG style which is a precise inner bore with a fill solid snap on one piece nylon cup...not two pieces. No spring. The cup fits tight on the ball...snaps on....and fits the bore precisely...and is swaged in massively tight from the back cap. Bulletproof.

2. A two piece upper and lower cup and cap without spring...just like the TRW

3. A two piece upper and lower cup and cap with a spring backing up the upper cap. Currently the Flennor brand....German (or China?)...use this style as did the original VW joints one of which I sectioned.

In reality, only the spring style can you accurately and effectively add a grease fitting to. But really....the totally sealed cup style like the TRW/MOOG and others...only need a dab of grease in the beginning..and to keep their boots intact and keep grit out.
Chances of actually wearing out or breaking the nylon one piece cup...which is so slick and wear resistant as to not change for eons...is about "0".

The TRW one I sectioned is from 1998 or so. It was still dead on tight and smooth (with about 70k miles and 16 years on them).
In all appearances it is identical in every way to the brand new TRW's I just bought so I have no reason to think they have changed internally. They are so cheap right now...made in Brazil....that I may buy a brand new one just to section.

The VW original equipment one I sectioned shows the same internal failure that every other part from that era showed......the wrong nylon alloy. The internal nylon cup turned to powder.....letting the tension spring make contact with the ball and let tension off of it. It got mushy and crunchy.

I have NOS ball joints in the box and the ones on the car were NOS when I installed them and they have about 15K on them...but they are all so old that the boots are shot......so I am finishing the molds now to make new 3 layer high temp silicone boots with nylon scrim.

All the parts get painted this weekend. While they are curing for a week or two I will be doing undercoat stripping to paint on POR-15....then brake lines and welding some pinholes.
And....I photo documented all of this and am working on a how to flip book. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Its been a while for actually updating THIS thread...but lots of other threads about component rebuilds.

Update 5-26-2016:

As for major details….little has changed….but actually a good bit of fine detail has.

1. I have finally ACTUALLY started stripping the undercoating from the front end so I can do any rust work, rust killing and re-coating so I can put the front suspension back on and get this car back on the ground to work on the rest of the underside.

2. I have finally decided from some trial and error product testing and research …exactly what will be done to the underside of the car…paint and coating wise.

I realized that the factory undercoating has been absolutely superb for 43 years of abuse. It should be fine to put back on until long after I am dead.

So….it will be done like this:

A. Strip to metal all cracked or porous spots of undercoating and paint. Sand smooth and even any spots that cannot be mechanically stripped. Stripping will be done with angle grinder, oscillating tool, needle scaler, Dremel, die grinder….using wire wheel. 50-80 grit discs etc. It’s too complex and costly to get this thing to a blasting service. It’s not as simple under the front end as a beetle.

Also…..where the undercoating is too hard to reach in tight angled spots under the front end…as long as its thinner, smooth, non-porous and has no rust issues…it will be sanded smooth and left in place.

B. Do necessary spot welding to fill pin holes. Several very small key panels will be cut out (more in the pictures), replaced by patch metal. The existing metal is solid enough to simply spot weld the pin holes….but cutting them out allows me access behind them to treat any surface rust in the heater channels. They are well hidden parts I will outline later that simple patches welded back in will be invisible unless the car is disassembled.

C. Wipe with acetone, treat all surfaces with Phosphoric acid to kill any flash rust and crevice rust.

D. Spray entire under carriage with Zinc-Dichromate paint

E. Undercoat with the factory product. This was the factory product http://www.wurthusa.com/web/en/website/produkte_1/...ishing.php if you scroll down…Wurth SKS stone guard spray is the exact factory product used for both undercoating and for that texture on the rocker panels on our cars, many Porsche, Mercedes. Audi etc.

Some of the super anal Porsche guys in in on-line threads have complained that the spray can version gives slightly too fine of a texture…and that using the “schutz” gun version (non-aerosol/compressor fed heavy viscosity low pressure suction spray gun)…is more exact to factory texture….which is probably true for the gravel guarding on our rockers.

But….I have found that the spray can version is virtually exact to our undercoating.

It comes in white, tan, black and gray. And….that this product from NAPA https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/MSR4004/ is virtually identical and probably made by Wurth….or by 3M..…also comes in white, gray and black.
Either the Wurth or NAPA product will be ideal. This is rock hard, high build and moderate texture undercoating…..but flexible so it does not create rock chips. This is what came on our cars from the factory.

I am researching this one right now. It is a version made by 3M and available at NAPA. The NAPA guys say this is the same thing as the aerosol…but designed to be spray by a disposable version of the “schutz” gun that 3M has. https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/MMM08949/
Not cheap….but comparable in cost to Wurth, available locally and could do the high build outer rocker panel textures later.

F. Paint body color over the top of the undercoating. For now I can have a quart mixed up at NAPA or Sherwin Williams, PPG etc.….and have it loaded into spray cans for using under the car.

This would be the final stage and then I would be ready to load the suspension, brakes and fuel system back in.
A lot of these restored/rebuilt parts have their own threads. But here they all are in groups.

The stripping:

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In this picture you see the right side fender off. In the foreground are the gas filler vent hose, the gas filler lid pull cable…yes…missing the outer cap/lid which I have. I will have a full rebuild thread on the gas filler flap cable in a week or so.

Almost 20 years ago as you can see I replaced the right hand door because an old lady backed into me. The driver’s side door was replaced 5 years earlier when a neighbor did the same. Incidentally…..they are both cheddar yellow and off the same wrecked 412. The funky looking stuff along the fender edge is 3M marine sealer…works great….impossible to remove. All bare metal at that time was sprayed with Ospho then with Zinc Dichromate primer. Tough to remove but bulletproof for rust so that’s what going on again.

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Close up of the cable in the trunk

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From the factory these access holes were covered by small tabs of cloth tape and contact cement. I covered them up with contact cement and vinyl. Worked just as well.

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Yes the carpet is sold old and dust covered and sun burned…..its brown and dry rotted. This is the gas flap pull cable. Yes..I had to tear the carpet…more like it just crumbled. But I will be removing it for a pattern.

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The cable is held to a small arm on the sheet metal panel. You need to remove the crimped ring clamp in
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The flash rusted area is from December trying my hand at using various stripping methods.

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About two hours of hard work so far.

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The pin hole to the right of the flange…is not a rust hole…it’s a weld pin hole from the factory. I will be fixing that.

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Remnants of Zinc chromate from 20+ years ago.

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These excessively thick areas of undercoating crack the easiest and also in the few areas of flex.

Also it’s been seen that the undercoating cracks and separates where its overlaid on seam sealer…so I will be exploring which seam sealer works best for spraying this over.

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This is the triangular contact section that comes up against the lower rearward arch of the fender. It’s a rust magnet. These pin holes were here 20 years ago. They are not any worse. Killed them with Phosphoric acid and sealed them with 3M marine sealer. Except for surface rust…they are no worse.

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This is the straight on side view of that area. I will cut out the area outlined. This gives total access to an important area at the very end of the heater channel. I will do this to both sides…and already have round access holes cut under the rear fenders so I can access the heater channels from both ends to spray in both phosphoric acid and then paint. I will weld in patch plates…and it will never be seen again.

So….much more to come….but here are the groups of parts ready to go in.

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Adjuster slots for castor.

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Control arms with Delrin bushings and floating bras flange plates

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Slots in subframe yoke for camber adjustment.


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NOS ball joints, new boots, grease fitting and baked epoxy coated then repacked with new grease.

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Inside of ball joint showing grease access holes.


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Above is the subframe group. It includes Subframe with both camber and castor adjustments added, new Buna N radius arm bushings and shims cut from 55 durometer sheet, Delrin control arm bushings with brass flange plates and eccentric bolts with locks, NOS ball joints with new boots and grease fittings and all is baked epoxy coated.

I really like the sway bar end mounts…for simplicity and fit. I have not decided whether to make new rubber inserts yet or go to solid outer links.

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Above is the steering group. It includes a rebuilt steering box with new seals and synthetic grease, a rebuilt with bronze centerlink with full seals, Rebuilt Tie rods using NOS TRW ends and with the Chromoly hex angled end modification so I can use straight ends to get the 9° angle anytime.

These tie rods…also have a stainless steel “hex” grip area added to them so the asshole alignment people will quit scarring up my tie rods. The original tie rods were so badly mangled from alignment I had to source better from a junkyard. No excuse now, they have a place to put the wrench.
The idler arm has a bronze bushing and grease fitting added.
You will notice that 25 years ago I built special end brackets to allow using two steering dampeners laid end to end. This is a SUPERB modification.

I am building a new bracket and the two red units are new Mexcian units. i will let you know hw they work. I will have a how to thread later for this very simple modification. Its simple bolt on.
All is epoxy coated and baked.

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This is the fuel tank group. Acid washed, phosphoric acid prepped, and epoxy coated. The fuel filler necks are epoxy coated and baked and the hose segments to the left are from type 3 stock.

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This is the strut and brake group. It includes totally rebuilt, slightly lowered, Audi mod struts with composite strut bushings, UHMW glides (and few other mods all in the strut rebuild thread), epoxy coated. Baked VHT high temp paint coated steering knuckles, new Timken bearings and races, new Sabo seals Mystik JT-6 high tempgrease.

The rotor are Zimmerman with cross drill and chamfer. The back sides and hub area are VHT high temp coated and baked. Rehabed strut bolt phosphoric acid treated locking plates. Upper strut strengthening flanges made from old strut bearing plates, aluminum/silicone strut to steering knuckle to ball joint gaskets (I will make these available as we go along), totally stripped, split and rebuilt calipers with FAG kit including new anti-rotation plates, new caliper half seals, new Speed Bleeder check valve screws, multiple coats of VHT high temp caliper paint/baked and modified to use hex head 8mm x 1.25 caliper bolts. New caliper mounting bolts with color painted and baked heads, Wagner anti rattle spring and pad retaining pin kit and Raybestos self-adhesive anti-rattle pad shim kit.
The rotor backing plates are VHT high temp painted and are baking right now….so no photo yet.

More to come. Ray
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Huge work done Ray, love to follow this!

Thanks for sharing!


/Lars S
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
Huge work done Ray, love to follow this!

Thanks for sharing!


/Lars S


Thanks Lars! It's partly money and partly time slowing me down. Hoping to get the front end assembled so it will roll enough to get it out of the garage and tilt it sideways to strip and weld the main center section....by mid summer. Then put it in nose first to basically pull all the rear suspension of and repeat this process.
Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

This thread is a great read. Any changes/updates? The newly designed front end is incredible. Looking forward to reading on...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
This thread is a great read. Any changes/updates? The newly designed front end is incredible. Looking forward to reading on...


Actually a few minor updates...mainly technique issues.

I just got the drivers side undercoating done last week. I have some small pounding out to so on the front valance and possibly about 1/8" to 3/16" of stretching to do.

I found that this,car was involved in a very mijor fender bender early in its life. It manifests itself in an,improper door gap between drivers door and front,fender.

Thats easy to fix because the door hinges are adjustable. But getting the door to front fender gap perfect means making the door to rear fender gap about 50% too small. It works.....but I dont like it and will fix it.

Whoever did the original work did a very good job....it was a dealer job. But.....the chassis was bent ever so slightly and instead of doing any difficult pulling or pounding they just replaced the front fender with new seals. It looked perfect, required no putty or filler..and has alwaya had that door gap issue.

The only other evidence that it ever had an sccident was found when I removed the vinyl trunk liner aft of the left headlight to the right of the spare tire well. Slight wrinkle in the sheet metal.

The other issue.....was this past weekend when I was going to start welding up all of the minor pinholes I found on the passenger side under the front fender. Stupid me. I ran out if gas for my mig and thought I would try my hand with flux core....since I will grind it smooty and undercoat it there anyway. Nope......just blowing holes.

So yesterday I got a new bottle of C25 gas and some much better alloy wire.
Also ....up until now.....I have been using a praxair gas called Stargon. Its 35% argon, 10% oxygen and 55% C02.
Many have asked....oxygen mix? Yes......for what I originally bought it for.....it worked excellently. Normally you dont want oxygen in a mig gas mix at all. It burns way too hot.

But for a low current welder like this made for sheet metal.....the oxygen helps on mid thickness sheet metal....like .060"- .075"..... if your welder has very fine, infinite current and wire speed. It allows you to use current settings that are normally a little too low to get the weld bead hot enough for good penetration. Think of it as a crutch for those with not enough experience. Wink

But....it was noted that really.....outside of that type of work.....inverter welders like I have are not really set up for Stargon.....so I went back to C25....and a better allow wire and a 10 lb spool to give better wire control. So hopefully thursday or Friday I will be finishing welding pinholes and patches and hopefully do the minor straightening this weekend.

Then about 3-4 hours of undercoating grinding in the actual suspension and gas tank area.

Then the whole under side gets a coat of phosphoric acid to convert all of the flashrust that has developed on the stripped areas. Then a coat of zinc dichromate primer and then hard factory undercoat/stoneguard. By about a week from now it will be ready to bolt everything up.

Nothing will be connected yet....no fuel or brake lines.....those I am working on. But it will be back on four wheels for the first time in 2.5 years.

Ray



So I wen
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Going to be as reliable and bulletproff as a Pratt and Whitney! Where do you suspect the car was hit?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

It has all the hallmarks of havibg simply been backed into....like perpendicular or "T-bone" style on the drivers side front fender....maybe even at a slight 3/4 angle towards the front.

It has just a little bit of distortion around the slot in the valance where the left side of the front bumper goes through to bolt up. It is hard to see without removing the bumper...so I am speculating that they just left it alone.

I would say that the outer left front fender was smashed....not flat against the inner firewall......but just enough that it warped in the left side inner fenderwall into the trunk...maybe a couple of millimeter....but light enough that once the fender was removed....just pulling on the left inner fender wall by hand was enough to straighten it with regard to hood fit.

I say this because once I started removing things or actually moving things around.....I noticed a line of cracked paint about 24" long that happened from the metal of the left side trunk wall flexing.....no actual dent or bent metal....just cracked paint. It was impossible to see for all the years I drove the car......because it was behind the wire harness that runs down the left/drivers side of the trunk.

This car got used hard.....not only by the previous owner but by me. This is not,saying it was not well taken care of.....just driven a lot of miles....at times with lots of stuff in the trunk. Lots of scratches so I will be stripping the trunk (ugh....lot of work)......but....under the left side vinyl trunk liner that is glued to the trunk floor aft of the headlight opening.....it has some surface rust....because again.....the paint was fractured from the accident.

The metal in this area was left slightly wrinkled....probahpy because it seems to affect nothing and is covered by the trunk liner.

Long ago....having the bumper off I noted the slight distortion around the bumper brqcket hole. At that time i suspected it probably had a fender bender against the bumper and the bumper may have been replaced.

Last year...while stripping the front suspension off....I noticed the wrinkled trunk side floor I described above. That taken with the very slight fit issue of the drivers door made me suspect a fender bender at some point.

Not a huge issue though. The car has never had a serious accident.

The drivers door is not original because in 2000.....a nice little old lady ....maybe 75 years old or older....in a buick slid 2 feet at about 1mph on wet pavement and pushed the drivers door outer skin in about 6".....she was horrified. It was a light enough bump it did not even rock the car.

Knowing I had a spare door and the structure of the car was undamaged....I let her off the hook. From appearances and age she was on a fixed income. It cost me nothing to slap the other door on.

The passenger side door had already been replaced.....with a door from the same donor wreck when my neighbor in 1995 did the exact same thing.

Ray
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1974vw412
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Ray, thanks for all the advice and sharing your restoration pictures.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

1974vw412 wrote:
Ray, thanks for all the advice and sharing your restoration pictures.


No problem! There are updates coming hopefully in the next two months. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Update: 11-4-2020

My apologies in advance. I hate showing body and paintwork updates…because so much of it will just be endless pictures with only so much detail to say in between.

So, it’s been a long time since….. MY CAR…had an update. Yes…things have been getting done but most of it are benchtop projects. First a couple of items.

My goals for my car have changed a little over the years. Back 20 years ago….I had a solid car with no dents and virtually no rust…but no paint and a worn out interior. I was driving it 1000 plus miles a week, doing constant maintenance….and in that period of time…I literally rebuilt the front and rear suspension completely at least twice…..before I figured out what I was doing.
So when the engine blew at 89k miles on this build….I swore it would never see road service again unless it was DONE…and DONE CORRECTLY. No more constant rolling resto.

And…my goal was to have the best factory perfect two door in the US! That has changed a little.

1. It is still straight. It has never had a wreck….but I have found that it had had a small right front fender bender early in its life and had been repaired…adequately.

2. 16 years of sitting under tarps, sometimes in the open and sometimes in storage units have taken their toll. Maybe a dozen little pan spots that need to be welded up from rust…but nothing tragic.

3. Looking at the trunk….years of driving with the trunk full of tools….leave a scratched up front valance between the headlights, brake fluid leaks had left stripped paint under the reservoir and just down the strut tower. But the rest of the trunk paint is pristine.

Ten years ago….I would have sourced pan metal to replace pans with rust throughs. I was contemplating what all needed to be done to strip the trunk and paint it back to factory.

Those things are not really important anymore when viewed alongside how many things I do need to do that are more important.

So the small pan holes will be ground out and small patches tacks welded in….sealed with Master series silver….new factory undercoating on the outside and new tar boards on the inside. The only way you could see these is if I ran you over and you lived!

The trunk…..Between the headlights….I will mask everything and spray an nice coating of master series rust stop silver…and will mask around the reservoir and paint a nice sharp edge square of master series that will look smooth and clean and never rust. The rest of the trunk along with all of the paint labels will stay factory paint and will get new mouse fur liners. It will not look factory but will look nice and clean.
The interior and exterior paint I will put my efforts into to look better than factory.
And this thing will run and function like nobody’s business!

So, my last REAL…under the car update was May of 2016. I was trying to fix rust pinholes at the fender sealing lines, grinding away crap and undercoating and welding holes. I have moved 550 miles since then and have n garage at the moment. I was hoping to get one by this past summer....but Covid 19 intervened Cool

So, before I moved....I got 90% of the undercoating off of both inner fender panels…and after some research realized that the Master series silver could fix a lot of that along with sealing and preventing future rust.

All of this update is front end underneath painting and undercoating.

The suspension and gas tank are 100% done and new…waiting to be installed. I still have a few hoses to get…but it’s ready to go back together. You will notice that I stopped undercoating and sealing right at the line of the forward bulkhead. That’s because everything rearward…will be next to get stripped, welded up, undercoated etc.

This is the left and right sides with the fenders off…. striped of 85-90% of their undercoating and all paint. The red circles on the left-hand side show pinhole locations. Really too small and thin to rust so they will be treated with phosphoric acid, plugged with rust killing paint and undercoating to be solid and water tight.

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These are some of the small rust throughs in the rear crush zone and subframe mounting are that will be zapped with phosphoric acid and seal with fiberglass dipped in Master series silver and then undercoated.

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This one shows the subframe mounting points and gas tank location for orientation. This picture is also the one I used to illustrate where the crumple zone point are.

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Here are some views of the masking. I masked all bolt holes, wiring hole and port holes. You can also see that up in the gas tank area…both paint and undercoating were very sparse from the factory.
After having to paint and undercoat up in there I know why!

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Then I Phosphoric acid treated all the fender areas and a couple under the car as well. I let it dry 24 hours….wiped it down with acetone…and now its time to paint with Master Series Permanent Rust Killer!

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Ok…..a couple of quick details about painting on the Master series Permanent rust killer. First…this stuff is fantastic!

Its about 30% aluminum. This acts as an aggregate (like rocks in concrete) for film strength, its also a cross linking agent and its an astringent. But this is a MOISTURE CURING urethane product.

Along with the aluminum and naphthalene in product….it seeks out any oxygen AND moisture left in crevices that contain rust….and absorbs it. It removes both the moisture and oxygen in any rust it can penetrate…to prevent any further rusting. Fantastic chemistry!

It very thick. They recommend two coats minimum. I would say that if you paint it on well and do not have thick crusty rust….a single coat does a better than 80% job of coverage and sealing.
But….on the second coat (you can do this within 2-3 hours of the first coat)….you can simply touch up…or…the second coat is where you use the roller for a slightly thinner, easier, fast coat.

If you can do a 80-90% coverage job with one coat with very few thin spots here and there….and you plan to fully undercoat like I do…you can get away with one GOOD coat…85-90% coverage…. and just touch up here and there.
I used 1.5 quarts total with 6% thinner by weight….to fully under paint the car at about 80% coverage...and then did a thin touch up with the roller for total coverage.

The guys that make Master series…know their stuff and their product, They are correct….that foam brushes and FOAM....not Knapped rollers….work VERY well.

Plan on needing a new foam brush about every 15-20 minutes. The paint east the glue that holds the stick into the foam. The entire underside took me about an hour to paint the first coat on.

Each outside fender side took me 30 minutes maximum. Retouch/second coat….1 hour for all of it maximum.

Wear gloves and a bag over your head or a hat. This stuff does not come off skin for about 7-10 days. You need good ventilation or a respirator…or both.

1. Stir the paint very well and slowly scraping all sides and bottom. Mix your paint with thinner in plastic cups…not in the can. I found that 250 grams at a time is perfect size.

AND….only dispense what you will use….DO NOT put any paint back into the can. The moisture it has entrained during painting will cause the can to cross link.

2. Start with un-thinned paint in a very small cup…about an ounce…with a brush and plastic spreader tool. Use this to load it in thick into small pinholes like those along the fender sealing areas. Make sure you fill the small put and holes. This stuff will dry solid and plug those perfectly.
Let dry maybe 30-40 minutes…then thin your paint and do the rest.

3. Trust me….with your car on a rack or about 2 feet off the ground as measured from the drip line below the doors…see my pictures….get a small stool. Sit under the car facing rearward with your back to the trunk firewall. Start painting here first. Paint the bulkhead behind the dash and everything you can reach, then turn around and work overhead…then down each side toward the idler arm and steering box mounting….then the forward trunk bulkhead.

Let dry to the touch for an hour or so….and then on your back on the ground…do the rest. Let this dry overnight before touching up underneath and then starting the outer areas. You can do the strut mount areas before you stop for the night.

The object is to get the overheads done where its hard to reach….before you start any vertical surfaces where you might be likely to need a hand hold while you move around.

NOTE: I actually painted the first coat on everything underneath the car. I am just showing these in the order they came off the camera.

First coat outside:

These areas in the strut towers are where you want to start painting first. Just like the underneath…get the high stuff out of the way and dry enough to work under…. first.

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Yes, I have to touch this one up on the second coat.

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These are the small rust holes that I showed earlier. This paint filled these solid. Excellent!

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Yes, there I a small rust through in the yellow circle I will do the same thing to later. This is a very small amount of odd welding in this area. As I noted…this car had a left front fender bender somewhere in Germany or Norway early in its life and had some pulling done.

After drying first coat and showing thin and missed spots:

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Also, an outstanding job of filling the pin holes on the right-hand front corner!

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Missed spot
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Some thin spots but overall good. The occasional lumpy spot is some original undercoating I missed grinding off. It will disappear under the undercoating.

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It filled in the pin holes well!

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This is a handprint….because I was stupid enough to paint this item FIRST when painting the left side fender firewall. I had to reach up and grab this area when painting the strut tower area….which is why I say…paint that area FIRST.

First coat dry underneath:

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This is the first lower item I painted underneath. I dipped fiberglass cloth in un-thinned Master Series…and slapped it on an slathered it with Master series. It looks ugly here….but once it dries it will get trimmed…coated again and undercoated. It came out great.

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Looking right. You can see the gas tank filler opening for reference.


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Left front wing area under the fascia. See the two holes and the slight wrinkles? This is from the original accident it had on the drivers front left.

They pounded it flat, drilled a couple of holes to work things out….then filled it with an asphaltic sealer and reapplied the inner trunk liner. Looks great from the inside and no leaks…but it needs to get cleaned out properly from the inside. I will flatten it a little better….and probably use master series and small fiberglass patches to fill it…and spot undercoat it again.

NOTE:….I have plans for this area on each side! I am going to install either a Hella 500FF or a Hella Rally 1000 driving lamp on each side…facing downward when folded up into these areas, out of sight.
When I reach down and pull the handle…they will fold to face forward and lock against stops so they will be at proper adjustment. I stole the idea from a British sports car (cannot for the life of me find the article link)…. From the 80’s or 90’s. It was a small two-seater with a big engine…..and was so small and low it had no place on the chassis for lights…any lights. So…they ere stowed folded under the front bumper.

When night was upon you….you pull over, reach down and pull a lever…and they simply rotate down and forward into locked position. Great idea!

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Looking left
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Looking rearward at the fuel tank space

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The spare tire well looking forward

After the final coat of Master series and masking for spray undercoating:
So, this is the undercoating I am going to spray on. So the original rigid undercoating…or stone guard…that is applied to our VW’s, and many Porsche and Audi….was originally made by Wurth and one other company.

It is still available in original colors and high build texture. This product…is NAPA’s house brand…made for them from what I can find…by Wurth. It is so nearly identical in every way that it’s not worth trying to find the other.

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You can buy the Wurth in Gallons and five gallons for a but cheaper in the long run (though its not cheap)…but it needs to be applied with a “Shutz” gun…like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Pn08997-Body-Schutz-Applicator-Gun/dp/B00D0I7OUI

You can get the 3M gun for $106….or a Harbor Freight type knock off…that work about as well…for about $20. These spray guns just lob it on. It’s what…along with the fast-dry time and high solids content…give you that wrinkled look to the rock guard.
The Porsche guys “prize” the exact build up and wrinkle level for their show winning cars. The problem with using the Shutz gun…is that it’s a bit more of a mess. It can be harder to control in some areas and easier in others. And…..it puts it on thicker. There are some spots I think the original got too thick on.

Here is the same stuff along the rockers of my car and yours. They tape off and spray this stuff on along all of the rockers. It dries for a short time and then they paint the body color over it. Its on my 2012 Golf as well.

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This stuff is hard as a rock….but is flexible enough that stones will not chip it…hence…stone guard. It kills noise as well.

The costs before we go any further:

So,….you need a mask/respirator. As nasty as the paint is…this is worse because its aerosol. You need some newspaper and a whole roll of 3M blue 2” paint masking tape. You need to protect everything from overspray. This stuff dries FAST….like minutes. It’s very hard to get off.

I used….4.5 cans underneath…and later another half can for touch up….so five cans. Each inner fender area…took 2 cans. Really you will probably need one more for touch up. I used 10 cans total. This stuff is $19 a can…about $20 with tax. So….$200 for front end undercoating. It will probably take about 8 cans in the center body section and about 6-8 in the rear. So…about $520 for undercoating…call it $600 with all materials…..not including the Master series silver paint.

If you need a respirator….I can tell you that if you have one…cartridges are hard to get for many brands right now. You should be using acid/gas …magenta/gray.
I can give you a part number for a damn fine 3M disposable acid gas, half mask respirator from Grainger. It’s the 5000 series. About $25…less than the unavailable cartridges for my Sperry/North half mask,

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-prod...&rt=r3

The master series silver…..its $39.95 a quart. I used right at 1.5 quarts….basically two coats on the front end. I bought a gallon…four quarts. It should be enough to do the rest of the pan and the back.

If you buy some and it sits on the shelf for over 6 months…it gets a little thicker. Use 5% solvent thinner (buy their thinner)….by weight. Use a scale.
The first 250 grams….about 8oz….did almost and entire first coat on one fender side. It took a little less than 3/4 of a quart underneath.

The Master series guys state that you should put 2 coats on for best rust proof and for good underlay for paint. As long as you have most of the rust gone and a good opaque layer….and you plan on putting on a thick undercoat…you will be good.

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The master series guys state that foam brushes and rollers work best. They are right. The foam brushes help squeeze the paint into the fine pits. But…buy about 10-12 foam brushes…mostly 2” wide. Each will last about 15-20 minutes before the paint east the glue inside and the head falls off the stick. Just squeeze the paint back into the cup from the brush head, throw it away and get a fresh one.

I used one cheap 1” bristle brush…and the second coat…filling small missed spots in large planar areas…and the little 3” foam rollers…made very short work of the second coat. And you will need it when painting the angled area just rearward of the gas tank.

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These were a cheap 3” FOAM roller set…like $4 at Walmart….a tray, a roller handle and three heads. Two are foam and one is a knap roller that is fuzzy DO NOT use the Knap roller. That’s why it has an X through it.

And get one of these…a cheap spray can grip. Worth the $3-5

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Masking:
The masking for the paint stays in place. We just add to it.

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First coat of spray under coating:

So…move in broad strokes and…circles in the complex areas. Do the inner strut tower areas first. The first can in these areas should do close to a single light stipple coat…of about 60% with some 40% silver showing through.
When this dries…to just touchable….its solid enough to do the second coat. This stuff dries fast.

NOTE: I went to fast and heavy underneath because it was hard to work overhead…and I really wanted to do it in one thick coat. It coated well…but it has a few runs…and will have smoother texture.

It’s the first layer of “droplet” shapes like you see…drying like that…covered over by the second layer of droplets…that give the “textured” look.

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Undercoating second coat and touch up areas:

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Light touch up here and you can see the runs. This is inside the front valance.

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A slight thin spot here that got touched up

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Don’t do this! Do not forget to cover the gas tank mount threads with a piece of tube.

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These got touched up too. And the rubber bushings are getting replaced along with the cross pin. I will have a how to on this.

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This ledge got touched up too

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So…the original undercoating was a sand or beige color. Then it had body color paint on it under the fenders and on the spare tire well.

This white was all I could get in this brand. Its very bright white! I like it in the underneath areas. I think its too bright under the fenders. I hung a fender back on…far too bright.

So…I thought I would try to kind of “dust it” with black. It actually looks far better with the fender on….than the pictures do it justice. It works great. But ….I learned that you need to move in circles to do this.

Each fender consumed a can of black to do this. I will expend 1 more can of black on each and make it a uniform dark gray and post the update pictures this weekend.

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Ray
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Hawker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Absolutely outstanding research and report Ray!

I remember doing this job about 15-20 years ago on my 411LE. I stripped off all the original stone chip/guard material on the front inner wings and treated the metal. Then started the repainting processes, like you. However, I used the materials available at that time and clearly there have been some big advancements in the ínterim.

Thank you for posting the photographs. They make it a great document of the work you have done. A real credit to you!

Thanks again!

BR,

Rob
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Thanks Ray for showing a step by step process. I am taking notes of how you did it as I will be working on that area aswell,
cheers,
Abel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

I finally had a chance to read the entire post with all of the undercoating work. Looking great, Ray!

That was a great idea to feather in the black over the white areas under the fenders. Agreed, that the white would be way too bright. I can see just from looking at the pictures that the wheel wells are going to look really sharp with the fenders on.

Again, well done! That car will never see rust again. Looking forward to updates.

- Ron
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
I finally had a chance to read the entire post with all of the undercoating work. Looking great, Ray!

That was a great idea to feather in the black over the white areas under the fenders. Agreed, that the white would be way too bright. I can see just from looking at the pictures that the wheel wells are going to look really sharp with the fenders on.

Again, well done! That car will never see rust again. Looking forward to updates.

- Ron



Yes...I thought the same. I will not fully undercoat the fender wells black until I hang a fender back on and see what it looks like. The object is not to have blinding white....but to tone it down. Its already water and rust sealed plenty.

But....I crawled under the car last week.....and I really kind of like the bright white everywhere else under the front end. It totally brightens it up and makes it a ton easier to see everything, inspect and work. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Ray - Any updates on your car? The rust treatment is looking good. Anxious to see what you are planning on next.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Ray - Any updates on your car? The rust treatment is looking good. Anxious to see what you are planning on next.


First I am getting back to seriously finishing the 1.8L build ai am working on.

But for my car.....the next stage is getting all of the front end and fuel sysytem back on shortly after Christmas.

But the next piece is finishing the rear trailing arms with the new bishings and disc rotors qnd Wilwood e-brake calipers because the rear end is next. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

I finally found this thread!! Very Happy I recalled you knew the good stuff in terms of undercoat. Stuff looks fantastic.

Also, you have amazing attention to detail. Beutifle work!

Question: how many cans do you think it would take to cover the bottom of my beetle? Under rear package tray, bottom of heater channels, under gas tank.


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Thanks
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Rays 1973 412 build thread (finally) Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
I finally found this thread!! Very Happy I recalled you knew the good stuff in terms of undercoat. Stuff looks fantastic.

Also, you have amazing attention to detail. Beutifle work!

Question: how many cans do you think it would take to cover the bottom of my beetle? Under rear package tray, bottom of heater channels, under gas tank.


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Thanks


Well.....the rear engine area of your beetle from about the arear of the forward firewall and curved hump cutout...to the rear bumpers including under fenders ...are roughly the same surface area as the underneath of the front end of a 411 or 412....but missing about 20-25% where the engine would be. So whatever the total number of cans I used minus about 25%.

The front trunk and suspension area is roughly half of the surface area in a 411/412 front end. So that is now the same as what I used on my front end....plus 25%.

The pan in between I would say bout equal to the area underneath the front end of my 412.

So....about 2.25 X as much as my front end took....as a guess. So in reality as I noted....not including the black top coat under the fenders....I could have just done it all black and saved 3 cans.....the front end of a 411/412 took 10 cans.

As I noted the flat bottom of my car I think may take 7 cans.
I think a beetle pan could be done in 5-6. The rear of your beetle in about 7 the front in about 5.

About 18-20 cans of this @ $19 a can a year ago or so...its $21.49 a can now.....which is actually not bad considering the hideous inflation....uh...I mean "Putin tariff"..... Rolling Eyes Laughing ....

So...about $450. Ray
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