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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: Grafting a 3-fold rag top - OG roof clip vs Aftermarket |
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Hi guys,
With my '54 Oval nearing paint preparation i've been losing sleep and lusting after a 3-fold to complete my '54.
I had a '59 previously with a Britex and abolutely adored the sunshine. All my cars have had sunroofs, my partner has a '09 Miata hardtop convertible, so as you can see, having a car without access to light in the roof just seems strange in our family! 
I know the purists hate 'hacking' up original cars, but I believe with most, your car, your money and as long as it is done METICULOUSLY without cutting corners, its as good as the real thing. Obviously this fact is from a cosmetic perspective and not a resale perspective.
So far my '54 has its matching engine, will complete its body off bare metal resto shortly in Strato Silver.
Awaiting fitment is a complete NOS Judson kit, 17" Airevo radar, F3-P fram and oil cooler and other special additions.
The one thing missing? a 3-fold rag top 
So I ask the question from a cost vs finished product, is it better to search for a rusty old rag top clip or to buy a complete opening/mechanism/canvas from someone like VWSunroofs.com aka Grumpys Metal.
Which is easier to do in the hands of an experience panel shop?
Which would be less of a headache in the long run?
I really would love to make this last change to my '54, and as I said would be doing it to a very high standard.
Personally, I feel vwsunroofs might be the way to go as it seems complete and would use all new parts etc, and seems period correct.
Any advise from those who have walked the path before me would be most appreciated, as I know there is a wealth of experience here
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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Kjell Roar
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008
Posts: 1326
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: |
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It is another period correct sunroof, I bought a (Tudor) Webasto 3-fold sunroof and fitted in my car. Cost £650 + VAT and freight from R&S coachbuilds in London. They dont have an internet site.
Webasto started making these sunroofs early in the 50'ies.
No welding, its a wooden frame you mount from the underside.
Its nicer than the original Golde roof.
_________________
I got a historic car, every scratch got a history...
My car, Aug. 4th, 1955 / an early 56: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=610438 |
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0nebadbug
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2009
Posts: 1087
Location: Rockford, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:38 am Post subject: |
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You kind of have to weigh the pro's and cons of 'lusting"... First thing to weigh is if the car you want to do it in and if it's in good order? then why would you? ... why not sell it off and/or simply trade up for one that has it? Unless you are in a full restoration and have the skills and tools to tackle it, it will be far less money in the long run.
We did one on our '57 (though its only a 2 fold), now in the paint process, the only reason we decided to do one on ours was for an obvious reason and issue. Our project at some time in its life had gone thru a massive hail storm so it had 30 or 40 golf ball sized dents on the roof that would have been an absolute nightmare to chase around and heating and banging trying to follow the warping from one end to the other. We just happened to get lucky and stumbled on a '56 donor baja abortion that literally dropped in our lap and it looked like an accordion hit from both front and back hard and pretty much everything that was left on it was trashed other than the complete straight squeaky clean 2 fold roof and for $300 for the donor it was kind of a no-brainer. After we whacked it all up and kept what we needed, what was left we sold off piece by piece until there was nothing left other than a twisted frame-head and 5 pounds of scrap metal.
These days it seems whenever I see OG 3 folds come across the classifieds here I know you will be hard pressed to find one that is clean, cancer free & complete front to back for under the $2,000 mark. And I would have to imagine that finding one there in Aussie-land is just as hard to come across here and sitting in a yard or hiding in someones barn just waiting to be picked off... well... you probably have a better chance of being hit by lightning twice in one day. Most people that have originals know what they have and want the premium for the donor. And when anyone that keeps an original 3 fold clip knows exactly what they have and what it can bring.
Unless you have extremely deep pockets and cost is no object then dive right in and start writing the checks! But if you don't... Just as a comparison I have a friend that is a reputable local hot rod builder. I had him stop by my house and he looked at what we had, showed him what we wanted done he quoted us $1,500 just to install it off-the-hip. That was just to do the install with rough grind.. no filler, no primer, no paint... While I was thinking more along the lines of $300 - $400 to just have it dropped in. After that jaw dropping cost we decided to just do it ourselves.
This is probably one of the best outlines as to what is involved in doing a graft well.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=501541&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
And also this is why most people refrain from doing it themselves... It boils down to having a bit of skill and extreme attention to detail and patience. Measure twice, cut once. I think the hardest part of our was honestly, actually getting up the balls to put the sawzall to the roof of an otherwise rust free car! Everything after that it was a breeze. You just need to remember though one really bad boo-boo and you can easily find yourself turning your ride into an impromptu convertible.
_________________
::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 ::: |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Kjell, it would be a vwsunroofs.com complete 3-fold kit. Finding an original 3-fold roof clip here in Australia in good condition is very rare
| 0nebadbug wrote: |
You kind of have to weigh the pro's and cons of 'lusting"... First thing to weigh is if the car you want to do it in and if it's in good order? then why would you? ... why not sell it off and/or simply trade up for one that has it? Unless you are in a full restoration and have the skills and tools to tackle it, it will be far less money in the long run.
We did one on our '57 (though its only a 2 fold), now in the paint process, the only reason we decided to do one on ours was for an obvious reason and issue. Our project at some time in its life had gone thru a massive hail storm so it had 30 or 40 golf ball sized dents on the roof that would have been an absolute nightmare to chase around and heating and banging trying to follow the warping from one end to the other. We just happened to get lucky and stumbled on a '56 donor baja abortion that literally dropped in our lap and it looked like an accordion hit from both front and back hard and pretty much everything that was left on it was trashed other than the complete straight squeaky clean 2 fold roof and for $300 for the donor it was kind of a no-brainer. After we whacked it all up and kept what we needed, what was left we sold off piece by piece until there was nothing left other than a twisted frame-head and 5 pounds of scrap metal.
These days it seems whenever I see OG 3 folds come across the classifieds here I know you will be hard pressed to find one that is clean, cancer free & complete front to back for under the $2,000 mark. And I would have to imagine that finding one there in Aussie-land is just as hard to come across here and sitting in a yard or hiding in someones barn just waiting to be picked off... well... you probably have a better chance of being hit by lightning twice in one day. Most people that have originals know what they have and want the premium for the donor. And when anyone that keeps an original 3 fold clip knows exactly what they have and what it can bring.
Unless you have extremely deep pockets and cost is no object then dive right in and start writing the checks! But if you don't... Just as a comparison I have a friend that is a reputable local hot rod builder. I had him stop by my house and he looked at what we had, showed him what we wanted done he quoted us $1,500 just to install it off-the-hip. That was just to do the install with rough grind.. no filler, no primer, no paint... While I was thinking more along the lines of $300 - $400 to just have it dropped in. After that jaw dropping cost we decided to just do it ourselves.
This is probably one of the best outlines as to what is involved in doing a graft well.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=501541&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
And also this is why most people refrain from doing it themselves... It boils down to having a bit of skill and extreme attention to detail and patience. Measure twice, cut once. I think the hardest part of our was honestly, actually getting up the balls to put the sawzall to the roof of an otherwise rust free car! Everything after that it was a breeze. You just need to remember though one really bad boo-boo and you can easily find yourself turning your ride into an impromptu convertible. |
I agree with many things you've said
Unfortunately again, finding a '54 3-fold rag top here in RHD is rare, and i'm not a fan of LHD which is a shame, as there are so many rag top ovals on here.
Agree again, finding a mint OG clip is near on impossible and when you do they ask mega bucks. Then i'd have to ship the whole thing to Australia.
The VWSunfoofs kit looks like a nice complete kit, and I really like the fact that everything is new. Although not cheap, I think it would be a smarter starting point, however i'm not sure how 'period' correct the fine visual details are of the kit, compared to a factory 3-fold.
For me, adding a 3-fold to this car would be the icing on the cake, and its a car I hope to keep for many years to come.
I guess if the general consensus would be that this 'kit' is almost identical to a VW kit visually and in operation, it would make the decision easier to cut the roof of my '54 and have it installed professionally as my oval is already in the panel shop being prepared for paint.
After many searches I can't find much info on the VWSunroofs kit compared to OG 3-fold and was hoping someone here could chime in with their experience.
The joys of restos!
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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Grumpy's Metal
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Huntington Beach California
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the 3 fold opening-
The opening size and shape is the same as original-
an original assembly could be used instead of the one I provide ( all 3 fold parts of the assembly are interchangeable with the original )
the first few openings I did, I installed a rear steel pinch welting for the headliner, but original had holes and requires a headliner insert ( this is how I make it now)
there are a few manufacturing differences- how I make mine verses the original, but with upholstery installed you can not see them.
I could probably tell the difference between original and mine, once installed and upholstered, but most people could not.
does this help?- here is a video I did on the first one
Link
John 714 328 1028
_________________
John
Have you visited GrumpysMetal.com Lately?
Last edited by Grumpy's Metal on Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for taking the time to reply John
I guess the rest is up to me, i'm still 50/50 on cutting the roof, but if i'm going to do it, I might as well do it right with your roof open and rag top, as I doubt i'm going to find an OG clip complete in new condition.
I'll keep this thread updated as I go and feel free to add any experiences guys.
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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David
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2004
Posts: 2027
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:22 am Post subject: Re: Grafting a 3-fold rag top - OG roof clip vs Aftermarket |
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| PASHN8 wrote: |
Hi guys,
With my '54 Oval nearing paint preparation i've been losing sleep and lusting after a 3-fold to complete my '54.
I had a '59 previously with a Britex and abolutely adored the sunshine. All my cars have had sunroofs, my partner has a '09 Miata hardtop convertible, so as you can see, having a car without access to light in the roof just seems strange in our family!
I know the purists hate 'hacking' up original cars, but I believe with most, your car, your money and as long as it is done METICULOUSLY without cutting corners, its as good as the real thing. Obviously this fact is from a cosmetic perspective and not a resale perspective.
So far my '54 has its matching engine, will complete its body off bare metal resto shortly in Strato Silver.
Awaiting fitment is a complete NOS Judson kit, 17" Airevo radar, F3-P fram and oil cooler and other special additions.
The one thing missing? a 3-fold rag top
So I ask the question from a cost vs finished product, is it better to search for a rusty old rag top clip or to buy a complete opening/mechanism/canvas from someone like VWSunroofs.com aka Grumpys Metal.
Which is easier to do in the hands of an experience panel shop?
Which would be less of a headache in the long run?
I really would love to make this last change to my '54, and as I said would be doing it to a very high standard.
Personally, I feel vwsunroofs might be the way to go as it seems complete and would use all new parts etc, and seems period correct.
Any advise from those who have walked the path before me would be most appreciated, as I know there is a wealth of experience here |
Your car has the original engine (and probably chassis) and you're thinking of ruining it by making it into a fake sunroof model?
Please, for the sake of all that is sacred, sell this car and get a real RHD sunroof car. I'm not a purist in the strictest sense, but they're not making any more 'original' cars.
_________________
Cheers,
Dave
*October '54 Ragtop
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Volumex
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2007
Posts: 532
Location: Sarnia, ON
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Hey Dino,
I have had the same thoughts as you. Every time I see a 3 fold clip for sale I wonder how much it would cost to ship over here.
The guys on that side of the pond may not realise just how rare sunroof cars are over here. I have been interested in VW's since 1987 and I don't think I have ever seen a 54/55 sunroof car. I have only seen 1 original 56/57 ragtop, and I know of another in Sydney. There must be some around, but chances of finding one is like trying to find unicorn crap. If I ever saw an original 54/55 ragtop for sale, I'd sell my left nut to buy it.
If I ever saw a 3 fold clip for sale in Qld - Emerald would have an opening roof 
I reckon that if you were to do the cutout in the roof very carefully then it would be reversible, albeit with much $$ involved and serious prepping skill necessary.
As far as re-sale goes - at a guess, I would say adding a 3-fold would add a small amount to the value of an otherwise original car although significantly less than the cost of the work involved.
It's your car, do what you want - I will lust after it either way  |
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Undis
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 1396
Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Volumex wrote: |
The guys on that side of the pond may not realise just how rare sunroof cars are over here. I have been interested in VW's since 1987 and I don't think I have ever seen a 54/55 sunroof car. |
There used to be one driving around in far western Sydney in the mid - late eighties. An old lady drove it. It was a private import as it was a LHD partially converted to RHD (speedo still where the passenger would sit). I used to lust after it every time I saw it (I mean the car not the lady). Back then I was a penny-less student, now I'm just penny-less  Often I wonder what happened to the car.
I think the lack of 3-fold sunroofs down-under is because of the full CKD production of the early oval era not being flexible enough to accommodate the extra work needed. |
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Hefner
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2012
Posts: 230
Location: North Coast, NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: |
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You go first Dino! 
I've been thinking about it for my 56, don't know what colour roof would suit gunya grey though....
_________________
1956 RHD Oval.
www.chrisgentle.com
www.customstreeter.com |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Grafting a 3-fold rag top - OG roof clip vs Aftermarket |
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| David wrote: |
| PASHN8 wrote: |
Hi guys,
With my '54 Oval nearing paint preparation i've been losing sleep and lusting after a 3-fold to complete my '54.
I had a '59 previously with a Britex and abolutely adored the sunshine. All my cars have had sunroofs, my partner has a '09 Miata hardtop convertible, so as you can see, having a car without access to light in the roof just seems strange in our family!
I know the purists hate 'hacking' up original cars, but I believe with most, your car, your money and as long as it is done METICULOUSLY without cutting corners, its as good as the real thing. Obviously this fact is from a cosmetic perspective and not a resale perspective.
So far my '54 has its matching engine, will complete its body off bare metal resto shortly in Strato Silver.
Awaiting fitment is a complete NOS Judson kit, 17" Airevo radar, F3-P fram and oil cooler and other special additions.
The one thing missing? a 3-fold rag top
So I ask the question from a cost vs finished product, is it better to search for a rusty old rag top clip or to buy a complete opening/mechanism/canvas from someone like VWSunroofs.com aka Grumpys Metal.
Which is easier to do in the hands of an experience panel shop?
Which would be less of a headache in the long run?
I really would love to make this last change to my '54, and as I said would be doing it to a very high standard.
Personally, I feel vwsunroofs might be the way to go as it seems complete and would use all new parts etc, and seems period correct.
Any advise from those who have walked the path before me would be most appreciated, as I know there is a wealth of experience here |
Your car has the original engine (and probably chassis) and you're thinking of ruining it by making it into a fake sunroof model?
Please, for the sake of all that is sacred, sell this car and get a real RHD sunroof car. I'm not a purist in the strictest sense, but they're not making any more 'original' cars. |
Dave, whilst I understand your point, I don't think adding a perfectly and tastefully grafted 3-fold will ruin/devalue the car at all.
Recently, a '54 body, on a '67 pan, with a 2-fold rag top added car, sold here for $25k. I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole considering how 'wrong' it was technically.
Granted it was a gorgeous looking car with fuchs, Agave green etc etc, but it just was too far from 'right'.
You are correct, my car is a Aussie delivered RHD Sept 54 with birth certificate, matching pan and 36HP engine.
It will be restored to original, with L227 Strato Silver paint, early 36HP motor, and a Judson kit.
That said, it will also be running CB discs and spindles, so it is never going to be a museum car.
I also used a pair of Gerson early oval heater channel assemblies, so if we are going on OEM metal modification, i've completely lost out already
I believe adding a 3-fold will make this my ultimate Beetle, and I don't intend to sell it for many years to come, unless financial reason force me too down the track.
As the Aussie boys have said, '54 Beetles are rare enough in Australia, and I honestly believe that a RHD '54 with a 3-fold and Judson would be worth good money if I ever did decide to part with it.
For every type/style of restoration, there is a equally motivated admirer or buyer who will appreciate a car like this.
Like I said, I respect and completely understand your view, but at the end of the day, I couldn't buy a factory RHD '54 in Australia with a 3-fold even if I wanted to, as they just don't exist in common circles
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Volumex wrote: |
Hey Dino,
I have had the same thoughts as you. Every time I see a 3 fold clip for sale I wonder how much it would cost to ship over here.
The guys on that side of the pond may not realise just how rare sunroof cars are over here. I have been interested in VW's since 1987 and I don't think I have ever seen a 54/55 sunroof car. I have only seen 1 original 56/57 ragtop, and I know of another in Sydney. There must be some around, but chances of finding one is like trying to find unicorn crap. If I ever saw an original 54/55 ragtop for sale, I'd sell my left nut to buy it.
If I ever saw a 3 fold clip for sale in Qld - Emerald would have an opening roof
I reckon that if you were to do the cutout in the roof very carefully then it would be reversible, albeit with much $$ involved and serious prepping skill necessary.
As far as re-sale goes - at a guess, I would say adding a 3-fold would add a small amount to the value of an otherwise original car although significantly less than the cost of the work involved.
It's your car, do what you want - I will lust after it either way |
Agreed buddy, you just don't find 3-fold Oval's in Australia, and our US brethren have no idea how rare they are, if at all they are in existence
If I pull the trigger, want to share postage?
(yes i'm serious) 
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Hefner wrote: |
You go first Dino!
I've been thinking about it for my 56, don't know what colour roof would suit gunya grey though.... |
I'm ready to pull the trigger mate, just need to find the right option for me.
Between Volumex, you and I, we should get a decent discount from John and share postage on a pallet, let's do it!
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Stephbong
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 167
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Yes it's better!
OG it is |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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After much patience from John Alba at Grumpy's Metal (VWSunroof.com) I have paid my deposit and looking forward to delivery as soon as John has a chance to complete it.
I am going with the period correct dark blue stayfast rag top (car will be sprayed L227 Strato Silver) and was wondering what colour headliner is correct for a Slate Blue interior?
The choices are:
Ivory Nap Cloth:
Gray Nap Cloth:
Light Brown Nap Cloth:
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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0nebadbug
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2009
Posts: 1087
Location: Rockford, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Why worry about colors? I say, if it turns your gears? DO IT TO YOUR TASTE!
Looking forward to the Aussie skylight transformation...
_________________
::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 ::: |
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PASHN8
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 152
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks mate
I will be adding my own little touches to this one, but i'd like to keep it mostly correct. I have a '61 Split panel that is getting an Subaru EJ22 and will be fairly wild, so the beetle will be the purist of the pair.
According to this:
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/colors/54l227.htm
Headliner should be grey to match the Slate Blue interior.
_________________
www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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RareAir
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2002
Posts: 14576
Location: 18 miles North of the border
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henry roberts
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2003
Posts: 1275
Location: australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| any chance of your old avatar coming back? |
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