2387cc combo

[Deh Shark]

My 2387cc is for my Street and Strip Dune Buggy. What do u think of the combo. Your views are welcome....

48 IDA's 3rd progression hole drilled.
86mm forged crank and flywheel wedgemated by Keith's Auto Parts
94mm wesico pistons w/ valve pockets
webcam 226 camshaft
226 webcam has a 304º 278º 0.610" 15.49 108º
webcam lifters
straight cut gears
CB 5.7 H-beam rods
1.4 ratio rocker arms
Superflow heads w/ 44 x 37.5 valves, Match ported Manifold.... Mild ported heads.. I dunno the flow. Maybe up about 200HP Max.. just guessing
High volume full flow oil pump 30mm
Brand new Aluminum case w/ center shuffle pins
racer spacer
Berg valve cover adapters
Chromoly push rods
Chromoly head studs(1/2 in longer)
Scat spring loaded pushrod tubes
Hardned lash caps
JC long barrels
..060 copper head shim
Would use an external oil cooler. Will be driven in the Virgin Islands.. Tropical weather...

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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc

[neil68]

I'd like to offer my experiences with the Web 226. I've used it in my 2332 cc now for a year and a half and it has not been as good as the previous Web 86C. My 1/4-mile races have been slower, 60 ft slower and the engine is just not as snappy, when driving. This was with 10.5:1 CR, IDA's 3rd hole, etc, ie. similar to yours.

I've investigated and found some others who didn't like as well, although it's just not a popular cam. I've also been informed that it is very hard on the valve train. While it seems to be similar to the FK87, there's just something not quite right about it, in my experience.

I will be removing it shortly. I really liked the 86C much better, although my Beetle is no doubt heavier than your dune buggy...
_________________
Neil.

Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo

[DarthWeber]

Aside from the cam the only thing I'd be concerned with is the Superflow heads. Granted, you probably aren't going to take any 100 mile trips, but unless you are running something like E85 I don't think you'd better plan on driving more than a few miles at a time. Those heads weren't made to cool very well at all in continuous use. My 2 bits.
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[mark tucker]

I dont know about that cam,but might want to change it . .040 gasket,unless the piston is going up +.020 into it.add some cooling tin to the lower half of the heads so they cool all the way around them.have fun.

[Deh Shark]

Thank you guys for ur response. This motor will be driven on the street in a dune buggy as well. But the island is 32 square miles long and about 5 miles wide. External oil cooler will be use as well.

I'm def looking forward to many fun times with this motor. I'll keep ya guys updated.
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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc

[Deh Shark]

Another question.. What other cam will be nice to try...

Thanks
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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc

[DarthWeber]

Web 86C, as Neil68 suggested. Engle FK-87. SLR XR-310.
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[speedyshift74]

I just built and installed almost the same engine as the one you describe above. I used a pair of proted 42x35.5 street eliminator heads set up at 9.5:1 and a CB #2250 cam. WHAT A BLAST to drive! Absolute neck snapping torque from about 2,000 to as far as I want to take it. Its in a full weight 67 sedan. First trip to the drag strip 7/1 and the car went 8.27 @ 81 mph 1/8th mile on some junk street tires. So you might want to reconsider a different cam as the one you are planning to use is a full race upper end unit. I thought the cam I installed was a bit small for my engine with only .450 lift and 290 advertised duration. But it is proven perfect !

[ALB]

Deh Shark- The 226 is definitely a high powerband cam with fast ramps and is (as Neil said) hard on the rest of the valve train and (I'm guessing because of only 26 degrees between the advertised and duration @ 0.050" figures; most cams are close to 40 and Engle's VZ and FK 40 series are about 30) probably hard on lifter bores too. With the right heads a motor with that cam would run to 8000? 8500? (I have no experience with this much duration in a motor so any one please chime in here) with power. A 2387 is a big motor and iIrc even Superflow heads have to be ported correctly to get enough intake port volume to make power at that sort of rpm. If there is a lot of drag racing in your future or the intent is to make it the most feared buggy on the island then I see where you're going but if (as you say you're "looking for many fun times") it's going to be driven a fair bit you might want to look for something a little more street friendly.

Cam recommendations- I don't know your experience level so I apologize if I'm telling you stuff you already know, but have you considered an FK8 or 86B, or as Speedyshift suggested, a CB 2250? In a lightweight buggy with their hugely flat torque curves, power to 6500+ and drive anywhere capabilities, these (or anything similar) would be a ton of fun and so little maintenance in comparison (another strike against the 226; anyone I know that's run that much duration seemed to always be messing with it). As Darth suggested, the XR 310 or FK10 would also have great powerbands in a motor that big, and rev to 7000 rpm with power. The 86C and FK87 (when used in a full weight bug) need close 3rd and 4th gears to keep the motor from falling off the powerband, but in a buggy might work, but then the duration is getting high enough that if you were to use all the power it had to offer frequently, maintenance may become an issue. But it would rip!

As Darth alluded to earlier, with street driving keeping the heads from overheating may be a problem. Have you read about Bob Hoover's (RIP Bob) lifter bore/lifter/rocker arm mods for getting more oil to the heads? Using an external cooler without increasing the amount of oil removing heat from the heads won't really cool the heads any more so that's why I suggest it. I believe Bob's website is down now so maybe I can send it to you later if you're interested.

As usual, just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al

PS- just noticed; I would use a 26mm pump.
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On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!!

[Deh Shark]

Hey Fellas! Thanks you guys for ur input. I have spoken to a engine builder locally in the V.I. He did mention the cam is a lil radical to be on the street. He did mentions some of the cam mentioned here. But it can work. Since this is a Street/Strip Dune buggy. He suggested to mate it with an 4 puck and 2100lbs Kennedy pressure plate w/ geared up 3:88 trans.

I won't be driving this Buggy no more than 10 to 15 miles or long distance.The Virgin Islands is small. Also... Some Dune Buggies displacement is 2 liters and up with 48's. If I do decide to change the cam... It will be more street friendly. Def will look into those you guys mentioned.

Here's the chassis... Enjoy

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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc

[kielbasa]

i used CB's 2213. its .437 lift at cam, [email protected]. with my rockers rolling a 1.57, i have a total of .689 lift.

i put this in a 2332, full street car, with ida's and 9.8:1 compression. i will tell you, it does nothing till around 4 grand, and screams like a motherfucker afterwards, but my freeway flier 4th was useless. basically im just saying if you wanna run a crazy cam, run some short gears. i took out my trans, and threw in a drag box i had laying around, should be better, we will see.
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Gotta give my props to:
Wolfsburg Motorsports
Dubbers Toy Box
Jeff's VW Speed and Fab
4inbore.com
Kielbasa Industries

[Deh Shark]

I'm currently going to change some stuff on my 2387cc 48IDA motor.
First thing is the Dune Buggy is a hot street car. On the Islands no long than 32 square miles.

I'm going with the CB's CNC Comp Eliminator Heads 48 x 40. And changing the cam to XR310 310º 268º 0.393" 108º lobe center Steve long Camshaft. Anyone suggest any similar or better cam? Thanks
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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc

[[email protected]]

you'll never go wrong with the 86C or FK89.
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[cudabear]

What John said on the fk89. I've been watching your build, I put together the same setup. Had Pat @ C B perf. Build me the 2387 builders choice motor & couldn't be happier. My buggy weights 1250lbs with me in it. It runs so calm and smooth at 1/4 throttle but get into it look out, it's scary fast. I'm running 10.5 on comp. it just has about 600 miles on motor and was running up to 250 degrees in 98 degree Fla. Summer Heat but is backing off now with temp. drops & motor breaking in. Pat dynoed my motor @ 205hp . I'm running a Wright Gear box Pro Street Plus 388 s/ beetle R&P and KEP stage 2 pressure plate it's a little touchy on take off its either in or engaged. A lot of stalling till I got used to it. Got off subject concerning engine heat, I am installing 97 pass cooler & fan under rear seat area. That should bring temps down 30 degrees. Word of advice be careful of those fat tires on the rear. I'm running 205/65r15 street tires on 6.5 " Center Lines & they hook just fine.

[Deh Shark]

I thought of those two cam recommended as well John. Esp the FK89. Well.... That FK89 will be used instead. Cudabear... Thanks for that info as well. Makes the decision easier for me.
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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc

[Deh Shark]

Engine complete and in the buggy.

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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc

[67Vw2387]

That Manx must be one crazy ride ! I have a 2387 in my 67 Bug , it pulls hard everywhere ...CB 2250 cam ( 455 lift / 290 Duration )

[yamaducci]

So did you go with the FK-89?
You need air cleaners in a bad way if you are on an island.
You aren't making enough HP without them to warrant not having them.
So after I read the whole thread and realized this engine has already been built and running for years I will comment on my experience. I have driven many islands in a Jeep and I own the buggy in my build link below. My 2498cc started with an FK-8 and had great power. Very usable down low for a light car. Probably the most usable of the three cams it has seen. The engine suffered from valve train and lifter bore damage so smoothing out the ramp on the cam was considered. I went with the FK-10. That cam really woke up over 4000 RPM's which is way higher than any flat out driving you will be doing on any island. The general rule of thumb to save your lifter bores is to keep the lift, at the cam, at or below .430" lift. It currently has some Hoover mods, bronze bushed lifter bores and an 86C which has not been test run yet but I am looking forward to it's potential and durability with the lifter bores and lighter springs. It has always run hot with Comp Eliminator heads on the street but reducing it's compressing and increasing oil flow should help a lot. Given what I know about island driving and buggies I would say the weight of your car is very forgiving for a large cam. Some islands have steep hills and a large cam in a heavier car would not be tolerated. If it is a street/strip car luckily it's light or you would have to compromise more in one direction or the other. I was going to suggest a 36 HP fan shroud and all other tin that works on a buggy but I see you have that covered; just make sure there are no leaks around spark plugs etc. Those heads need all the cooling they can get. On the trans. I have a 3.88 R&P and 3.78 first. With it being so light it can sometimes be started in second so depending on your island having hills or not you could make your 1st taller than that. I also had to lower the 4th gear down from it's original gearing since I ran out of gear in the 1/4 mile. a 1.02 4th would be nice if you are running the 1/4.
Nice job on your builds. I have a 57 Rag and a Buggy so I know what you have put in. Especially seeing what you started with. Mine too was in a field with weeds growing through the floor pans.
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-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

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[mark tucker]

I like the tires, a little small but I likem.

[Deh Shark]

Hey Yamaducci. I change the heads and cam. I had Super Flows 44x37.5 which I sold those then bought the Comp Elimination 48x40.

Cam n lifters where changed to SCAT Lifters with SLR Treatment, Steve Long Racing Cams Cam Grind: XR310. They were change because this would be easier on the valve train as mentioned. My trans is pretty much rebuilt but im planning to purchase better trans in the near future.

Tires are 275/50/15 Mickey Thompson Rims 10inch.

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55 3 fold Ragtop
Manx Dune buggy 2387cc