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MagmaJctAz
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 289
Location: Mesa, AZ
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 Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Well, that depends. What's your goal?
The starter pulls considerable current. Fortunately, that run is short, with large diameter cable, through the starter solenoid (relay). The starter solenoid pulls a lot less current, but is still be somewhat high. In the original design, the power for the starter solenoid takes a long journey from the battery under the seat, to the ignition switch, back to the starter solenoid. This journey is considerably longer for Busses.
As time wore on, and terminals developed corrosion, spade terminals loosened up, the ignition switch contacts aged, more and more voltage drops with higher current. Ohms law V=R*I tells us that as long as the resistance in the wiring remains low, voltage drop (loss) remains low as well.
But as resistances increase over time, voltage is dropped, leaving less for the starter solenoid! Kirchoff's voltage law! Replacing all the wiring, terminals, and ignition switch will solve all these problem.
But with money being tight, and with more and more components becoming NLA, we are left with improving VW's design, making it more resilient to the effects of ageing. But inserting a relay to send power to the solenoid, we take considerable current off the ignition switch circuit. (Resistances are less relevant when less current is run through the circuit!)
Any auto relay will work as long as its contacts are rated for the current drawn by the started solenoid. It is my understanding that the start solenoid can pull up to 10 amps. A Ford relay is overkill, and could potentially use only marginally less than the VW starter solenoid! There's only marginal benefit.
Several years ago I was waiting in the emissions testing line, in the Arizona desert in June. I got up to the sniffer, turned off the ignition like instructed. The emissions employee couldn't get the engine to crank over. They pushed me out of the bay, I pop-started the engine on them. (Rude, I know!)
I drove home, frustrated I shut the engine off and attempted to restart it. Damned thing started right up! This happened a few more times, whenever the engine was hot. I went to Radio-Shack and picked up an "auto relay". I wired it up. 15ish years later it's still working!
I've since acquired a 71 Type 3 that hasn't run in decades. With no keys, I was forced to remove the ignition switch to turn the wheel. The 71 ignition switch assembly is NLA. If I can't get the one I have to work, I may have to go with a pushbutton starter, like what you seem to be considering.
Best wishes!
Regards,
Mike
Regards,
Mike
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1971 Fastback. Check out my Fastback resurrection thread!
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26315
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| MagmaJctAz wrote: |
Any auto relay will work as long as its contacts are rated for the current drawn by the started solenoid. It is my understanding that the start solenoid can pull up to 10 amps. A Ford relay is overkill, and could potentially use only marginally less than the VW starter solenoid! There's only marginal benefit. |
It can be over 10 amps, and as much as 35 amps for the momentary pull-in current. (that's why I recommend a larger fuse than the standard 15A one in the WR1 kit) These small power supply or horn relays are usually rated at 30 or 40 amps which is sufficient.
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Sirreed
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2015
Posts: 9
Location: Lakeport
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| The push start button I have is 8 amp momentary push button. A 30amp toggle ( goal is to eliminate ign switch beyond the locking mechanism) would it be a smart idea then to install a Bosch relay? Up front with the switch and push button? And is so how would that wire schematic look? |
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Goshen
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Joined: April 03, 2012
Posts: 833
Location: Miami. FL & Cartagena
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Goshen wrote: |
| Has anyone done this on a Bus ? |
Adding a relay between the ignition switch and the starter is a common "fix" for many cars (even US cars).
I'd suggest you look for a similar HSR thread in the Bus forums:
Split Bus - Barndoor
Split Bus
Bay Window Bus
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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christiancarpenter
Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2010
Posts: 192
Location: edmond, ok
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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| hello, I've done the hard start relay in my 68 and it seems to work very well. I just picked up a 62 that I'm very excited about and I want to add the hard start relay to it as well. there is no wiring under the rear seat aside from the battery ground and the positive cable going to the battery. my question is can I put the relay in the front storage compartment, right after the ignition switch? or is the whole point to have a short wire coming directly off the battery going to the 30 terminal of relay? it seems I could come off the wiper switch with a positive wire, cut my starter wire from ignition to starter solenoid and insert my relay, and finally ground it right there somewhere. is that legit or does it need to be close to the battery under the seat? I suppose I can run the wire connected to the starter solenoid into the passenger compartment and then another wire back out, but if it's legit to put the relay up front, it would be easier for me to get to. thanks for any input. |
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Joe Bence
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 501
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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You want the relay in the back of the car, that is the whole point of the relay to eliminate the hi amp draw on the long wire run back to front and front to back.
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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You can add the HSR under the car near the starter/solenoid. If you are concerned with the elements, they actually make waterproof versions of the Bosch-style SPDT relay:
http://www.parts-express.com/12-vdc-waterproof-5-p...t--330-079
I would also use a proper harness/socket to go with the relay. This maintains a good electrical contact and helps to keep the dirt out.
http://www.parts-express.com/12-vdc-5-pin-relay-socket-for-bosch-type-relay--330-075
You have everything you need there near the starter. Your high amp 12v source can be the battery cable stud on the solenoid. Ground can be from any good ground sources down there. Mount the relay someplace out of the way and run the wires leaving enough slack to allow the engine to flex.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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christiancarpenter
Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2010
Posts: 192
Location: edmond, ok
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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| thanks for the replies. while getting started on brake inspection/flushing/replacement last night I got it up on stands and with the wheels off I could see up there better and it appears the car already has a starter relay mounted to the bottom of the body directly above the starter solenoid. it is a larger fender mount style like a ford would have. not real fond of it being exposed to the elements under there so i'll probably get a smaller style 4 prong relay and wire it up under the seat by the battery. this car is a little different than others I've had as the voltage regulator is mounted to the engine tin above the generator instead of under the seat where other beetles I've had have been. anyway time to focus on the brakes as I have a leak at the rubber plug and rear wheel cylinders. after perusing the posts here about leaking master cylinder rubber plugs I've hoping and praying for good leak free fit. happy Easter everyone! |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26315
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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Those Ford style solenoids can be just as problematic as the one on the starter itself.
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IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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pepsiguy78
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Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| mondshine wrote: |
Maybe this view of the area under the rear seat bench will help you.
In the top photo, aside from some extra items, is the connector for terminal 50 of the starter. The heavy red wire originates at terminal 50 of the ignition switch, and runs through the gray jacket and the grommet to the starter.
In the bottom photo, the hard start relay is "arted in".
When the key is in the "start" position, the relay is energized, and connects terminal 50 of the starter to battery +.
A fuse in that line (or any wire connected directly to battery +) is a good idea.
Terminal 86 of the relay is connected to ground.
It's best to have this relay "inside the car" where it is out of the elements, clean and dry.
 Before you do any of this, make absolutely sure that the connection at the starter terminal 50 is clean and tight. This type of connection can easily weaken from fatigue. You might just solve the problem by fixing that connection at the starter.
Good luck, Mondshine |
I am a little confused and want some advice before I install a HSR on my '74 SB - wire 87 and wire 85 tap into the red wire under the rear seat - cut the wire and connect the two wires in? Also, is the 15 amp fuse adequate or should I use a 30 amp or? |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| pepsiguy78 wrote: |
| I am a little confused and want some advice before I install a HSR on my '74 SB - wire 87 and wire 85 tap into the red wire under the rear seat - cut the wire and connect the two wires in? Also, is the 15 amp fuse adequate or should I use a 30 amp or? |
No cutting of the red (#50) wire is needed. In the top half of the pic you can see there is a yellowish junction in the red wire. If you pull the red wires out of reach end you will find a female terminal on the end of each wire. These are the common 1/4" press on terminals that perfectly fit the male terminals on the (Bosch style) HSR.
15A should be okay.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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pepsiguy78
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Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| pepsiguy78 wrote: |
| I am a little confused and want some advice before I install a HSR on my '74 SB - wire 87 and wire 85 tap into the red wire under the rear seat - cut the wire and connect the two wires in? Also, is the 15 amp fuse adequate or should I use a 30 amp or? |
No cutting of the red (#50) wire is needed. In the top half of the pic you can see there is a yellowish junction in the red wire. If you pull the red wires out of reach end you will find a female terminal on the end of each wire. These are the common 1/4" press on terminals that perfectly fit the male terminals on the (Bosch style) HSR.
15A should be okay. |
Thank you!!! I thought that I could do just that but wanted reassurance from the expert. Thank you!!!! |
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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2661
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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| I typed midamerica into google and got nothing that showed a HSR. Where do I find this pre-wired Bosch HSR for our cars? |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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Scotty, just get one from Wolfsburg West. I don't know if it's made by Bosch or not, but I got a WW one and installed it a couple years ago, using a 20 amp fuse.
No problems whatsoever.
I've found that MidAmerica is pretty much out of stock on anything I'm interested in buying.
Tim
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scottyrocks
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2661
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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| Thanks, Tim. I've found a few of them by now, one made by a samba member. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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| if you use the small icecube relay be sure it cant get wet and is hung so if it does it wont get h2o inside of it. mount inside, would be good but some are mounted out side. I use the ford style sliynoid on mine, it had the icecube when I got it,one day after a good wash and onto the wife car for a good wash... my bug drove it's self across the road and into the woods. an hour later it had the better ford silly noid on it. That ended the self drive mode. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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For this reason they should really be installed under the rear seat where they can remain dry. \
If you really must install it outside, look for a weatherproof version of the SPDT/SPST relay. Some come with an adapter that adds a rubber sealed skirt around the relay and plug.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/75601/Skirted-Mini...DQodxJIK_w
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 5600
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay Diagram |
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| Quote: |
| look for a weatherproof version of the SPDT/SPST relay |
My first bug had a 6 volt Ford solenoid for a hot start relay. It was mounted with one of the long starter bolts thru one of the tabs. The solenoid was encased in hard plastic with external studs. A short wire from the battery connection on the bug starter to one of the 'big' studs on the Ford solenoid. From the other side 'big' stud to the bug starter coil. Then wire 50 connects to the coil stud of the Ford solenoid. Waterproof (Ford solenoids also come in 12 volt) 
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UK Luke 72
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