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outoftheoffice
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Joined: March 02, 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Houston, Texas
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 Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: Crash Box vs Split Case |
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Sorry for digging up such an old topic but I was just looking for a conclusive answer on this. I have heard different things going around and just wanted to get my facts straight.
From what I think I understand these are the differences:
Crash Box:
Came in pre Nov 52 vehicles
All gears were non-syncro
Exterior looks simliar to split case transmission, maybe the same?
Split Case
Post Oct 52 until sometime in 1960?
Only first and reverse were non-syncro
Case is split (obviously)
Here is a reference post: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91471&highlight=crash+box
And a side note, does anyone happen to know where the term "Crash Box" came from? Is there a story behind it or is it just the term that is used for that specific transmission? |
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hazetguy
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Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: |
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crashbox:
splitcase:
i think the term "crashbox" comes from the gear gnashing sounds caused by improper shifting and the lack of synchros.
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johnshenry 
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Joined: September 21, 2001
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| hazetguy wrote: |
crashbox:
splitcase:
i think the term "crashbox" comes from the gear gnashing sounds caused by improper shifting and the lack of synchros. |
Yes.
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
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ScottMcW
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Location: San Diego / Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
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On a side note...with a crash box trans you are double-clutching, right? Why does that not work in first in a split case trans? Or does it (maybe I've never tried!)? Not a huge deal, I'm slowly getting used to not shifting into first.
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Yes, you have to double clutch the down shifts on a crash case. Up shifts, you just "time" the shift by allowing the engine rpm to drop to the gear speed of the next higher gear.
You could DC into first, but I have never tried it. I have a '50 with a crash case and drive it quite a bit. Even at moderate engine RPM, you are going so slow in first that by time you did the 6 step DC maneuver, you'd probably have coasted to a stop anyway.
Double clutching spins up the mainshaft in the tranny while it is in neutral to match the "road speed" of the next lower gear . I usually just "contact synchro" first if I am just creeping along. That means "let it grind a bit", but usually I come to a stop before going into first. If the trannies are filled with a good gear oil, they are pretty indestructible as long as you don't really force anything.
Now you got me thinking, next time I drive my split (or '57 for that matter) I might have to try a DC downshift to first, but my bet is that it is just not effective/needed.
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Easiest way to tell a crash case BTW, is the lack of ribs on the side, and the upward facing oil fill cap. Crash case trannies were used past Oct '52 in non-US Beetles BTW. I have heard of standards with CC trannies into the early 60s.
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outoftheoffice
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Joined: March 02, 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| All great information, thanks. And I am assuming most of what I stated above is correct, then? Apart from the model years crash boxes were used.. |
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I believe that the post crash boxes had ribbed cases that looked a lot like the split case synchromesh trannys.
A bit of trivia, all of the gears in a vw crash box (other than revers) are always in mesh. The drive pins are what actually engage and disengage when you shift. The only wear you will see on the crash box gears is on the gear faces. There will be no damage to the edge of the teeth since they don't ever disengage.
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Dropped Metal Customs
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
You could DC into first, but I have never tried it. I have a '50 with a crash case and drive it quite a bit. Even at moderate engine RPM, you are going so slow in first that by time you did the 6 step DC maneuver, you'd probably have coasted to a stop anyway.
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i tried this few weeks back in my split case(1st gear crash) maybe i did the whole process wrong but it didnt work lol, i read in some thread about how you have to have the revs up quite high to match the gears when down shifting but it mate a horrible crunch in front of all my neighbours
the only time it would be nice to be able to shift into 1st when driving is in stop start traffic but you learn to not give a fuck about impatient drivers behind:P
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I tried DC'ing a 2nd to 1st shift a little while ago, and NFW. Either it mechanically isn't possible, or the "gate" is so small, you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery. I tried even near idling in 2nd, and jumping to 1st with a CD spin up, and crashed the gears no matter what. I believe you don't get into 1st unless you are stopped. Period.
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Bruce
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| I believe you don't get into 1st unless you are stopped. Period. |
Keep trying. It can be done, I've done it. It is not as easy as people think. That's because today's driver grew up with synchros, so the art of double clutching is lost.
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johnshenry
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| I believe you don't get into 1st unless you are stopped. Period. |
Keep trying. It can be done, I've done it. It is not as easy as people think. That's because today's driver grew up with synchros, so the art of double clutching is lost. |
Hmm, I'll try it again another time then. Logically I can see no reason why it can't be done, but i know that the lower the gear, the smaller the "gate". That is why 4->3 is way easier than 3->2.
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drpete
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| I believe you don't get into 1st unless you are stopped. Period. |
Keep trying. It can be done, I've done it. It is not as easy as people think. That's because today's driver grew up with synchros, so the art of double clutching is lost. |
Hmm, I'll try it again another time then. Logically I can see no reason why it can't be done, but i know that the lower the gear, the smaller the "gate". That is why 4->3 is way easier than 3->2. |
Here in the land of "Hollywood Stops", we get a lot of practice.  It's easy on my bugs and buses and I haven't got a ticket....yet.
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Had a sort of weird older guy talking to me longer than I would liked him to at the Brookline transporter Day show last Sunday. He was telling me about how he used to shift crash cases up AND down without the clutch "back in the day". Theoretically, I could see how it could work, and if I concentrated on listening to the engine speed, I could usually upshift that way pretty easily, but down shift?
He told me how if you nudged it to neutral without the clutch, you were all ready to spin up the mainshaft for the next lower gear.
So if course on the way home I had to try it.
As you may know, the trick to slipping out of gear without the clutch is getting that "no load" point, not accelerating (no load) nor engine braking (no lag), so you ease off the gas with a little pressure on the stick and it will pop out.
So at maybe 34 mph or so in 4th, I did that, nailed the gas and shoved the stick forward and it jumped right into third with nary a grind, or even a clunk. I was surprised, and thought maybe it was a fluke, but tried it 2 more times and did it exactly the same each time. NO grind at all.
I tried it 3rd to 2nd... Nope. As I stated be fore, I think the "gate" there is much narrower.
Anyway, dug up this thread as I had recalled it being discussed here before. Wonder if anyone else has tried it. If not, go for it! 30-35mph (just under 60kph on my speedo) seems to be a good spot...
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delamaize
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Joined: December 05, 2008
Posts: 769
Location: Tenino, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
Had a sort of weird older guy talking to me longer than I would liked him to at the Brookline transporter Day show last Sunday. He was telling me about how he used to shift crash cases up AND down without the clutch "back in the day". Theoretically, I could see how it could work, and if I concentrated on listening to the engine speed, I could usually upshift that way pretty easily, but down shift?
He told me how if you nudged it to neutral without the clutch, you were all ready to spin up the mainshaft for the next lower gear.
So if course on the way home I had to try it.
As you may know, the trick to slipping out of gear without the clutch is getting that "no load" point, not accelerating (no load) nor engine braking (no lag), so you ease off the gas with a little pressure on the stick and it will pop out.
So at maybe 34 mph or so in 4th, I did that, nailed the gas and shoved the stick forward and it jumped right into third with nary a grind, or even a clunk. I was surprised, and thought maybe it was a fluke, but tried it 2 more times and did it exactly the same each time. NO grind at all.
I tried it 3rd to 2nd... Nope. As I stated be fore, I think the "gate" there is much narrower.
Anyway, dug up this thread as I had recalled it being discussed here before. Wonder if anyone else has tried it. If not, go for it! 30-35mph (just under 60kph on my speedo) seems to be a good spot... |
As you have found out it is possible, it is called "Floating the Gears" Truckers with their 12 and 14 speed Dual range trannys use it all the time, I haven't ever done it in a VW, but I was good enough with my Jeep I could FLoat the Gears from 1st all the way thought 5th, and I was able to do it in my buddys 1938 Chevy pickup, and the 1968 ford F750 Fire truck at my Voulnteer Fire Dept. (the same rig I learned to drive stick In  )
Intresting story, I actuall had to float the gears on my jeep one day to get it home, the throwout berring and pressure fingers on my cluch discinagrated(sp) while driving on Ft. Lewis, Wa. Luckly I was going at the right speed, when it let go I was able to slide it back into a gear (3rd I think) and git all green lights between Ft. Lewis and the Freeway and I-5s Maytown Exit, then the drive from Maytown to Tenino was mostly country roads, lots of Cali-stops, Made it home, not once stalled, or gear missed, Floated all the way. Clutch and flywheel were complete losses though.........
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Starting over again.
| ovalteen wrote: |
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drscope
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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A guy with a Model A told me they called it a crash box because if it ever got out of gear while you were going down a steep hill, you wouldn't be able to get it back in. You couldn't stop the car with the brakes only and you would crash.
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virtanen
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Here you can see the differences for gear change between 1-2 and 3-4. Problematic 1-2 has straight cogwheels need to go each other. When 3-4 has round head pins in gears which change much easier.
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ProjectX
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| virtanen wrote: |
Here you can see the differences for gear change between 1-2 and 3-4. Problematic 1-2 has straight cogwheels need to go each other. When 3-4 has round head pins in gears which change much easier.
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Now there's an explanation 
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| 56OvalRHD wrote: |
| virtanen wrote: |
Here you can see the differences for gear change between 1-2 and 3-4. Problematic 1-2 has straight cogwheels need to go each other. When 3-4 has round head pins in gears which change much easier.
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Now there's an explanation |
Yeah, that is pretty cool. Thanks for the pic Mika!!
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johan_l
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