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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: 130 vs. 160 watt generator component differences |
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Does anyone know what the specific differences are between the armatures and field windings on the 130 watt and 160 watt (early thin slot) gens?
The only visible difference I can see on the 130 watt ones is that the threaded shank on the pulley end is a bit shorter maybe 1/2" whereas the 160 ones it is more like 5/8"? How does that correlate with the different hub and pulley designs?
I have a set of number readable field windings from a 130 watt, are they the same as for the 160 watt? I'd guess not.
Anybody have a reference (probably Bosch) for what field windings were used in the split and early oval gens? I have some NOS windings, but all have different numbers, and some don't even look like they would fit in the std beetle gen housings.
Lastly, has anyone ever run a 160 armature in an earlier housing with 130 watt field windings? It would seem like it should work, since the regulator is going to limit the current anyway.
Maybe I am the only one here who fiddles with these gens, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask. I am finding the availability of 130 armatures to be dwindling, and I have a half dozen or so 160 watt ones. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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virtanen Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2006 Posts: 1461 Location: Finland
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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For the windings:
RED130/6 - 2500 AL 15 or AL 16 has Bosch DWC 217 L 4 and L 5
LJ/GE 160/6 - 2500 L2 has LJWC 14 L 2 and L 3
LJ/REF 160/6 - 2500 L4/L13/L19 has DWC 217 L 22 and LJWC 14 L 2
LJ/REF 160/6 - 2500 L17/L19 has DWC 217 L 4 (this is the same with 130 W) and LJWC 14 L 2
What is the real difference, I don't know. |
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Anchovy Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2000 Posts: 2921 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have a big box of NOS early 6V generator innards. I will look through them and see if I can get some part numbers and see any differences. |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Anchovy wrote: |
I have a big box of NOS early 6V generator innards. I will look through them and see if I can get some part numbers and see any differences. |
Thanks, I appreciate it. If you have any DWC 217 L 4 and L 5 field windings that you'd like to sell, please PM me.... _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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Anchovy Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2000 Posts: 2921 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
Anchovy wrote: |
I have a big box of NOS early 6V generator innards. I will look through them and see if I can get some part numbers and see any differences. |
Thanks, I appreciate it. If you have any DWC 217 L 4 and L 5 field windings that you'd like to sell, please PM me.... |
Do you have a VW part number? I have some older looking boxes with field windings. Part number 111 911 115 and 111 911 115A. |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Anchovy wrote: |
johnshenry wrote: |
Anchovy wrote: |
I have a big box of NOS early 6V generator innards. I will look through them and see if I can get some part numbers and see any differences. |
Thanks, I appreciate it. If you have any DWC 217 L 4 and L 5 field windings that you'd like to sell, please PM me.... |
Do you have a VW part number? I have some older looking boxes with field windings. Part number 111 911 115 and 111 911 115A. |
All of the Bosch windings I have seen have numbers on the paper wrap like above. I do not have the VW PNs unfortunately. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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virtanen Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2006 Posts: 1461 Location: Finland
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Spare catalog from 1956 says:
130W:
111 903 351 A Winding 1
111 903 353 Winding 2
160W:
111 903 351 A Winding 1
111 903 353 B Winding 2
111 911 115 is winding for STARTER |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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virtanen wrote: |
Spare catalog from 1956 says:
130W:
111 903 351 A Winding 1
111 903 353 Winding 2
160W:
111 903 351 A Winding 1
111 903 353 B Winding 2
111 911 115 is winding for STARTER |
Thanks Mika! _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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Anchovy Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2000 Posts: 2921 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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OK, digging deeper in the box. |
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VWwerks Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 207 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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The 3 thin slot gens I have all have a 1/4" or so metal band around the armature and a cut-out slot in the metal field winding "holders" for clearance. My 130's do not have this band. _________________ www.VWwerks.com |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, here's a pic:
The two on the left are 130 watt. Note the shorter threaded area for the nut at the top. [ER if you are reading, yours is the second one from the left]. You can also see a larger ridge at the bottom of the commutators on the 130 watt ones. The second one has a lacquered twine winding just above and below the core, whereas the one on the left has it just below the commutator.
The three on the right, I believe, are all think slot gen armatures, 160 watt. One is NOS. The other two (the one on the far right is something else, way different, and not a thin slot.) are obviously used, and the one in the middle has the steel band that Jim mentioned above. Its housing had the field winding cores clearanced for it as well. The one on the right looks like it had a band but is was knocked off.
So I'd guess you could put a 160 watt arm in the 130 housing, but I wonder if the pulley end would accept the 130 watt gen large nut and hub for the pulley. If it is just too long, maybe you could just cut it back a bit?
Only one way to find out.......!! _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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hawaii five-o Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2005 Posts: 125 Location: honolulu, hawaii
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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What are the differences between a RED 130/6 2600 AL 15 and an AL 16 generator? In particular, are the armatures for the AL 15 and AL 16 the same dimensionally/physically? I'm sure the main differences would be part numbers.
Virtanen, IN2VWS, could you please post 'em?
I was told that the AL 15s were used up until April 1951, then the AL 16s came after that.
Mahalos John for working diligently on my generator! |
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IN2VWS Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2006 Posts: 2521 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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hawaii five-o wrote: |
What are the differences between a RED 130/6 2600 AL 15 and an AL 16 generator? In particular, are the armatures for the AL 15 and AL 16 the same dimensionally/physically? I'm sure the main differences would be part numbers.
Virtanen, IN2VWS, could you please post 'em?
I was told that the AL 15s were used up until April 1951, then the AL 16s came after that.
Mahalos John for working diligently on my generator! |
Erron,
Here is the info I sent you in an email. It iss from a 1952 Bosch catalog. Thats all I have, sorry.
_________________ ( ⫏ ⫐ )
(ọ\ ¡ /ọ)¹⁹⁵⁴ ¹⁹⁵¹
(⦷ ⥢ Ĭ ⥤ ⦷) 𝗞_𝗔_𝗥_𝗠_𝗔_𝗡_𝗡 𝓖𝓱𝓲𝓪¹⁹⁵⁶
⨴⨵--⊗--⨴⨵ 𝕊ℙ𝟚¹⁹⁷³
𝟵_𝟭_𝟰¹⁹⁷³ |
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hawaii five-o Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2005 Posts: 125 Location: honolulu, hawaii
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Aussie John, don't be sorry...that's very helpful information and I'm learning some German too!
That catalog lists two different part numbers for the "Anker" (armature) between the AL 15 & AL 16. Interesting...hmmm
Much Mahalos Mate! |
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virtanen Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2006 Posts: 1461 Location: Finland
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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My Swedish Bosch catalog somewhere 1958 says that both has the same armature nr 29, maybe that time the dropped old part.
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hawaii five-o Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2005 Posts: 125 Location: honolulu, hawaii
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Great Mika!
It may be possible that the armatures for AL 15 & AL 16 are interchangeable. Both are 130 watts...it's just a matter of having the same physical dimensions.
Mahalos again!!! |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Well the armature in the pic I posted above on the left, is out of a '52 (I think, the housing is badly pitted and it is hard to read the date code) AL16 gen, and Erron's, second from the left, is from his AL15 gen (we think, his housing is at the plater's right now). His arm did have the hemp/twine around the "neck" just below the commutators, but does not have the hemp/twine winding at the other end, just past the steel cores.
Dimensionally, they are the same, I checked them. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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HeSa Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2007 Posts: 466 Location: FINLAND
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: |
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The numbers in brackets should be found stamped to the armatures.
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I looked at the armatures, Errons and the other AL16 I have. Both have what appears to be "LJ5L2" stamped on them, and then on an adjacent core, what appears to be a date code.
On the AL16 I have, whose housing is stamped 5H (May '52), the date code is "3H". Makes sense. On Errons, it is 11F (Nov '50). Again, I don't have his housing at the moment, so I don't know its date code. Erron has told me his split is a Feb '51, so that would make sense also.
Neat stuff, I didn't know armatures were date coded. For the ultra-ultra purist... "Hey, is the date code on your generator armature correct for your year and month of manufacture?"
Thanks to HeSa, in2VWs and Mika for the scans/pis. This is what makes this forum the best.
I will heat up my shop today (its 24 degrees out there now) and inspect the armatures again with magnifying glasses, but so far it does not look like those "DAN" numbers are on there...?? _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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hawaii five-o Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2005 Posts: 125 Location: honolulu, hawaii
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
Thanks to HeSa, in2VWs and Mika for the scans/pis. This is what makes this forum the best. |
I agree wholeheartedly! There's a saying here in da islands, "Spread da Aloha!"
Mahalos guys for sharing the love/passion/disease. |
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