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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
first, is the 18' oxygen sensor cable recommended to reach from the exhaust to the windshield mount? I have the 8' cable that comes with the deluxe kit, but I fear it may be a little short.


I had to use that longer cable on my Type 3 fastback to reach the dash. Worked great. Once I have it dialed in, I'll remove gauge, replace the resonator with the bing with a plain unit, but leave the cable in place in case I want to check readings later in the engine's life.

I am just using a cheap phone mount from AutoZone. I'm on my second one, the first having broken from the excess leverage on the plastic spindle. Mine is hanging off the slanted glovebox lid and this put extra leverage on it. But it was only about $8.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Ok, here is an interesting observation, maybe you guys can clear this up for me.

2276, 40x35.5 heads with lightly cleaned up ports, 9.3:1 CR, .050" DH, Web 109 with 1.1:1 rockers, 1 1/2" BP merged header with hideaway, sea level. I've been tuning this with Spanish 40IDFs and have been having an issue with lean readings at WOT -- it'll stay in high 13 / low 14 range at WOT. Last jetting tried was 30mm vents with 52/145/200 on F7 tubes -- ran fine, with idles being on the rich side, but no hiccups.

I got a set of crusty Italian 44IDFs off eBay, cleaned them up and set them up with same manifolds as before. Used 55 idles and same emulsion tubes from the 40s -- F7s, 145/200, 36mm vents. Car feels smoother overall with more power (obviously), but weird thing is, the WOT is now reading in low 11s and sometimes I'll see 10s -- totally normal and makes me happy, but why did the same mains/airs act leaner with smaller throats/vents?

Another issue is my idle is high, like around 2K. Throttle plates are covering all the transition holes (I checked), I have to check the bypass screwes but pretty sure I saw their tips sticking out of the barrels. Any way to get the idle lower? Timing at idle is at 9 BTDC. Mixture screws are 1 1/4 turn out for now, idle AFR is around 13.

I drove it around for half an hour and it felt nice, but clogged an idle jet (I was expecting that -- insides of carbs were really cruddy and corroded, it'll take time for them to clear up). This engine definitely likes 44s better though.

Stan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Probably answering my own question here, but it is possible to put an O2 sensor on a standard Type1 Beetle Muffler/Exhaust ?.
I am guessing a bung would have to realistically go in each of the removable tailpipes in which case the answer would be a NO ?,
obviously the removable type clip with sensor that gets pushed into the pipe is also out of the question due to the diameter of those tailpipes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

stan_tichomirov wrote:
I got a set of crusty Italian 44IDFs off eBay, cleaned them up and set them up with same manifolds as before. Used 55 idles and same emulsion tubes from the 40s -- F7s, 145/200, 36mm vents. Car feels smoother overall with more power (obviously), but weird thing is, the WOT is now reading in low 11s and sometimes I'll see 10s -- totally normal and makes me happy, but why did the same mains/airs act leaner with smaller throats/vents?


Just a stab at it, but the 44's are going to just flow more air, thus leaner. Even with the same vents.

stan_tichomirov wrote:

Another issue is my idle is high, like around 2K. Throttle plates are covering all the transition holes (I checked), I have to check the bypass screwes but pretty sure I saw their tips sticking out of the barrels. Any way to get the idle lower? Timing at idle is at 9 BTDC. Mixture screws are 1 1/4 turn out for now, idle AFR is around 13.


Are the throttle plates completely closed? I have my bypass screws closed and it made synchronizing them easier.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

I went through them again tonight, 1/2 side had bypass screws backed out 2 turns. I'll start it tomorrow and see how it goes.

Stan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

stan_tichomirov wrote:
but why did the same mains/airs act leaner with smaller throats/vents?
Stan

40-idf-70 have married idle system (idle jet fed from main well)
44IDF have divorced idle system(idle jets fed from float bowl)

This is the majority reason why.
During part throttle operation the married idle system helps to create automatic transition from idles to mains, and improve economy from better atomization.
At WOT the idle jet flows backward and becomes an air bleed into the main well.

Divorced idle system, the mains and idle system can discharge fuel at the same time, even at WOT. this allows largest vent size to be used, but makes transition more variable and touchy about float level.

The other smaller reason is the bigger top bore and aux. venturi you have more signal with the same vent size.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:41 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Thank you for your advice John and Roachdub. I made it run on 52s as I needed the car during the weekend. The throttle plates were opened too far Embarassed .
I am reseting the LBI after each jet change.
I will do the whole tuning procedure all over again on road during the weekend if the weather is good. I want to start clean and not base my assumptions on what I did before, and draw conclusions after each small step.
What ignition map shall I start with? I just plugged in the 009 timing map to get the car running, but it is obviously not the best (slow increase in advance with RPM and no load - MAP or TPS - dependant change). As I know, increasing the load at the same RPM implies reducing the advance. But how about the AFR? Leaner mixtures need less advance and richer need more?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

tzepesh wrote:
Thank you for your advice John and Roachdub. I made it run on 52s as I needed the car during the weekend. The throttle plates were opened too far Embarassed .
I am reseting the LBI after each jet change.
I will do the whole tuning procedure all over again on road during the weekend if the weather is good. I want to start clean and not base my assumptions on what I did before, and draw conclusions after each small step.
What ignition map shall I start with? I just plugged in the 009 timing map to get the car running, but it is obviously not the best (slow increase in advance with RPM and no load - MAP or TPS - dependant change). As I know, increasing the load at the same RPM implies reducing the advance. But how about the AFR? Leaner mixtures need less advance and richer need more?


That's great it turned out to be simple! I can't recommend a timing MAP, I'm no expert on that... In general, if the engine is built with a proper deck height, cam selection, compression ratio, etc, you won't require as much advance as the same engine built with one of those things way off.

In the past, people more commonly built an aircooled engine that was too soft and soggy, so putting in an 009 and setting max timing to 30-32 degrees was the thing to do and let the idle timing fall wherever it does. So, starting with a basic 009 curve isn't so bad, just don't set the idle and WOT timing like it was an actual 009. Keep the idle timing below 10 and total advance at WOT under 30 so you don't have to throw extra fuel at it to have power.

After reading the benefits of a proper compression ratio and deck height, I decided to re do my engine as I converted it from turbo use in a bug to NA use in my bus. I ended up doing a science experiment without knowing it. Using almost all the same engine components I got interesting results-

Before:
Compression ratio 7.9:1 (with turbo)
Tcs10 Engle cam (basically turbo version if w110)
Deck height .100" (old recommendation for boost)

The engine really liked the 30ish total timing and of course a lot of fuel, being turboed, but also the terrible deck height. Idle timing around 12 degrees. Very soft on the bottom end but awesome under boost

After:
Compression ratio 8.9:1
Cam regular w110
Deck height .042

The timing now runs best at 6-8 degrees at idle and 26-28 at WOT. The throttle response is twice as good and it has more power now than the previous setup ever did while not on boost. Seems to run cooler but I can't verify that. I've come to the conclusion that the old ways of thinking do not work for the performance engines.

Depending on your combo, it will be hard to recommend a perfect MAP. You just need to keep tweaking the tune. If you find it's needing too much fuel and advance, consider changing engine specs a little. In my case, it was super cheap, I ended up shimming the cylinders a tad and removing copper head gaskets and it made a HUGE difference in power.
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Last edited by TinCanFab on Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

modok wrote:
stan_tichomirov wrote:
but why did the same mains/airs act leaner with smaller throats/vents?
Stan

40-idf-70 have married idle system (idle jet fed from main well)
44IDF have divorced idle system(idle jets fed from float bowl)


Glen -- mind blown lol. I've heard of people say that before, but I never really understood what that meant -- I'm slow. Makes perfect sense, thank you.

Stan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Is there any technique to measure the idle jet size without jet gauges? I can only find gauges in 0.05mm steps, and for Dellorto I would need something like 0.47 or 0.49. I'm thinking about using a microscope with digital camera, these usually have a SW that can be used to measure things in pictures if the scale or magnifying ratio is known. But I do not have any available.

Regarding the ignition map, I was asking from what type of distributor shall I take the initial timing map (mechanical and vacuum), not the real map (I can find these in different topics). But now I'm thinking that the Bosch diagrams show ported vacuum not manifold vacuum, so they are really no use. I will just drive with a laptop near me and see the bins where the timing is staying in various driving conditions.

Leaner mixtures burn faster so the advance would need to be retarded, and richer mixtures burn slower so they would need more advance, right?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

I was just thinking of another method to check the jets: I can use a fuel pump with all jets in parallel (something like a commonrail) and measure how much gas is flowing through them during a defined period of time. I can do this with 4 identical jets or I can put different sizes of jets in parallel, such that the test would be in identical conditions for all.

Would misfire in carb be due to too much advance (but I doubt it because the map is from a 009 so advance is small, wideband shows rich, and it doesn't backfire with smaller jets where wideband shows lean).
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

The most common way to check jets without a jet gauge is to use the shanks of a series of really small drill bits. You might not be able to get the exact size but you can usually get close enough to figure out what you've got.
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If anything comes out perfect it just means your measuring tools are substandard.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

How to measure a hole; post apocalypse methods

Find a range of things similar to the size of the hole. They can be sewing needles, drill bits, bicycle spokes, hypodermic needles, and whatever you can find. SORT them by size and stick into a piece of foam to stay organized. If you need a thing IN BETWEEN two sizes, take a bigger thingy and polish it smaller. The dremel 3-jaw chuck is very handy for this. Chinese cheap drill sets are a good source of raw material, but often are not the sizes claimed.

Also, you can take a longish thingy and polish it to a taper, and then see how far the jet goes onto it, and measure that spot.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

http://www.ebay.com/itm/21-PC-Mini-Drill-Set-Small...XQrhdTTtud

This is a very cheap (cost) and reliable set.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

I'll just follow the normal tuning procedure step by step and see what I end up with. Maybe I'll make those #50 work. I'll post when I get the final results in a week or two depending on weather.

The holes I'm trying to measure are 0.45mm, 0.47mm and 0.49mm, and I need to measure them extremely accurately which seems almost impossible. The tool set Hollis linked is for larger holes, from 60 up. I do not see any possibility to use a combination of wires or something else, the holes are too small. I don't see many things that small to get alone in those holes, talk about two? I like post-apocalyptic methods, but just for the fun of thinking, they usually do not apply to such high precision or at least not in my case.

Maybe just for fun I will try the flow measurement with fuel pump, at least I can get an idea if the 52 flow the most, 50s less and 48 the least, an then see if there are any differences between the 50s (if they are balanced).

I have to buy a small bench lathe, it's only about 500 bucks and I keep fining every week that I could use it for something. I could have used one to mill 0.5 or 1mm drills to the needed dimensions, to use them for measurement. I have all kinds of micrometers and precision measurement tools, but I don't have the possibility to machine things...

Thank you all for your support and advice, I'm confident I can fine tune it and I'm willing to be pacient and follow the whole procedure from start to finish.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

If I designed a carburetor, I would not use jets smaller than 0.5mm, because yes they are impossible to drill, hard to measure, and plug too easily.

Another possibility is to just use a good standard size idle jet that is a little too big, and enlarge the air bleed until it is right.

I'd like to think I thought of that, um, but actually so did everybody else too, and many are made that way.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
what is your ignition timing at idle? I was checking to see if the aux vents were in properly (they are), not upside down (a common problem).

Have you driven around yet for a week with the main/emulsion/air jets removed?

From what you are writing, the problem appears to be a late main tip in, and has nothing to do with the idle/progression. It's a common mistake to try to tune out this problem with the idle jets, when the issue is the main circuit timing.


Just got the car back from the alignment shop so was able to drive it a bit.

I tossed the 47.5 idles in and set LBI. got 14.0 +/- AFR (I check the AFR after I was happy with LBI).

Pulled the stacks out w/o touching the idle mix or speed screws and tried to drive it. No way can I drive in local traffic like that. 12-13:1 ARF before it goes lean and falls flat. Was able to get about 3000 RPM out of it in 4th nursing it gently.

I put this stack in:
135 mains
F7 E-tubes
NO Air Corrector (300?)

wow

at throttle openings where it was dead with the stacks out it was just a lean hole that I could drive through. Over all the 47.5/135/F7/No Air combo feels best except for the lean hole.

I was amazed to see the lean spot was about the same with the Airs out as it was with either 180 nor 200 Airs.

I have 140 & 145 mains, 220 & 240 airs, and F2 E-tubes coming.

Putting in the 135/300 combo showed me that the main circuit is working earlier than I thought. It will be fun to see the effect of the bigger mains.

I'll start with the 145's and no airs to see the effect of the single change.

Then try the 240 and 220 airs to learn what that does.

If the lean spot is gone I'll test the E-Tube I have to learn those effects.

Side note: It seems that every time I do a WOT high RPM run it drops a cylinder with a plugged idle jet. I always find a little sliver of black rubber blocking the fuel orifice. It looks like a bit of rubber off the K&N air filter seals? I would expect to find that inside the idle jet from the air side, but I always find them on the fuel side? Bowls are clean ... so far it is random never the same cylinder twice in a row.

Thanks for getting me to look at the beginning of the thread again. You were right, I was trying the wrong things.

Randy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Tried No Air Correctors (300's?) - Thinking that larger AC would start main circuit earlier - still lean 18+ on transition
Tried No Air Correctors and 165 main - Thinking that if it is late mains circuit the combo of huge main and huge AC would make transition too rich ...

Nope
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Try to block one of the bleed holes with MIG wire. Don't block both, just one for now. Re-test. This will bring mains in sooner. You'll have to re-experiment with air jet sizing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Try to block one of the bleed holes with MIG wire. Don't block both, just one for now. Re-test. This will bring mains in sooner. You'll have to re-experiment with air jet sizing.


The first thing I tried was blocking bleed holes in the F11's. Then I tried F7's.

The 165/f7/no air combo did not kill the flat spot.

I was hoping that I could get the mains to come in too early and then tune from there.

I even swapped the 32mm vents back to the 28's

The only thing that effects the lean spot is going bigger on the idle jets. The 47.5's make the lean spot undrivable on the street. The 52.5's makes the car drive like a dream but the idle/transition/cruise mixture is too rich. I seem to have misplaced my #50 idle jets.

Now that I have one jet change that effects the range where I have the drivability issue I'm going to put the 32mm vents back in and tune the main jet stack combo for 12.5 +/- under load and live with the idles that eliminate the flat spot.

I think in a heavier car I'd be driving at the top of the transition / bottom of the mains rather than the off idle / lower part of transition.

I think I'm getting valve float over 6300 RPM. It sounds odd just as I run out of room on my test loop and the tach tell-tale is always 6390 or so. I done want to run any heavier springs so I'm setting the shift light to 6000 or maybe 5800 to stay out of trouble.

If I can't get the street drivability as nice with the 32's as with the 28's I'll give up any high RPM gain to have a car that is a pleasure to drive every day.

When I have the 52.5's in and no flat spot the thing drives like a torque monster. Great fun and puts a smile on my face every time. It pulls from 1500 in 4th right to as fast as I have space to drive it. At the moment it is 10.9 - 11.5 in the 2000-3000 RPM range in 4th. In 3rd at 4000+ it starts to go lean 13+ at the top end. Exactly what I would expect with huge airs.

I need to swap out rotors and bed my race pads in so I'll try jet combos while I do that.

Going 1/8 turn in on the idle mix screws gets 15-16:1. Going 1/4 out from LBI is 12:1 or richer.

With the 47.5's in after coming to a stop the mix goes from 16.7:1 to 14.5 as I wait through a light. The 3rd to 2nd throttle blip is a wet fart.

With the 52.5's in the mix goes from 11:1 to 14.5:1 waiting for the light to change. Down shift blip is quick and crisper.

I think the 50's might be great if I can just remember where I put them.
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