Wideband Results

[Lingwendil]

Hey guys! not sure if this is the best thread for this, so let me know if im out of line asking here. i'm thinking of buying one of these ("B" model with sensor) kits so i can start being serious about tuning...
http://www.14point7.com/products/slc-free

and was wondering where best to put the O2 sensor bung...

I'm running one of the basic empi/bugpack style headers with a quiet-power muffler, like this...

theres not a ton of room on the header, so i was thinking of putting it on the pipe between the flange and muffler, after the bend. would this be a good way to do this? not as easy to swap exhaust this way but it seems like a better way unless im missing something. maybe switching to a hideaway muffler, and putting a bung further downstream would work too?


again, let me know if i need to buzz off, ill start a new thread
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[rbp]

That's where I'd install it. Mine is in a very similar spot.

[stan_tichomirov]

I welded mine into the header collector, before the flange. This way I can run different mufflers -- stinger, A1 Phat Boy and Hideaway.

Stan
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[TinCanFab]

Ok, I've read this thread 8 times and I need some opinions.

60 single cab, stock height with RGB trans 4.12 R&P/.82 4th gear
2017 engine w dual 40 IDF's (Italian "new style" acc pumps) no "update kits" added
5600 rev limit
110 cam (advanced 4 degrees) 1.1 rockers
32mm venturies
10mm float level
8.9:1 CR
CB CNC 044 heads, small ovalish/round ports 42x37
.042" deck height
MSD 6AL and centrifugal distributor
1 1/2" standard header and single quiet pack w/high flow boxes
My elevation is 100ft above sea level
German doghouse cooling with t-stat/flaps and Venturi ring
10w30 oil
Firewall behind fan shroud has several 1" holes to feed all the new airflow, incoming fresh air comes from the treasure chest

This engine was reworked into this combo based off of what I had on hand from it being in my bug with turbo to be a torque bus engine. I really like the power and the way it drives. I feel I'm as fast as I should be in a stock bus.

My current jetting is 52/150/220 f11 tubes
My timing is 7 deg idle to 28 at full advance

I drove with stacks removed and settled on 52 idles. Very happy with the drivability and nice 13.1ish AFR at very light cruise 1/8 throttle or so. Any more throttle and the engine falls on it's face. The fastest I could drive was 35-40 mph in 3rd gear. 3300 RPM and it's done. Forget 4th gear all together, it won't go for s**t. Tried 55's and it was pig rich in every RPM and gear. 50's were lean everywhere and power was very flat.

Next, I put in huge mains (measured at 190 w my gauges) and started with 180 airs. It drove well, no pops or big stumbling but very flat without a lot of power. On my gauge I saw the lean hole before it swung rich. Then I increased it to 200, then 220. At this point, the hole seamed to disappear and only leave a slight lean condition when throttle is rolled on to WOT. It looks like the normal lean spot you would expect the acc pumps to help with (mine are backed off)

So, I think I'm ready for my mains. I swap my huge ones to 130 trying to fill that lean hole. It's lean everywhere, so I go to 140. Things are improving but when I roll throttle to WOT, it's in the 14's. 150 mains now. After full warmup, the bus drives GREAT with just a little flat spot in transition (lean AFR's). GREAT off idle and when the pedal is mashed in 3rd or 4th gear I get AFRs between 12.8-13.3ish. It pulls hard to 70mph no problem.

Now, I have idle circuit and WOT at low 13's BUT at 1/2 throttle in 4th gear when I want to cruise at 55, I am in the DEATH ZONE no matter what. The only time I have seen anything other than stoich in this driving load was with huge mains......I know my mains should be close based on WOT AFR. I feel I'm close ao I don't want to keep upping the mains. For kicks, I plugged both top holes in the emulsion tubes, no noticeable change! I pulled the wires out of the f11 and removed air jets completely, still leaving 150 mains just to see a change. It was crap to drive, as expected, BUT I am cruising 4th gear at 55 and AFR is STILL at 14.5-7. Nothing I do will even get it to dip into the 13's at all! I can cruise 45 mph in 4th gear and I'm in the low 13's. Any more load and it goes lean, unless I put the pedal down I get low 13's again.

Should I increase my mains more? Seems like they are getting big at this point?

I have some other things I noticed since putting the engine together that may be a problem:

1-my IDF's were bought on the classifieds but it looks like someone put carb tops from 44's on top! I never new that 40's have the cast looking snorkels in the top. I currently have 2" velocity stacks. Is this a problem?

2- my header has the "big" 3 bolt flange which I read is a no-no, but I don't know why and if this is my problem

3-my 32mm vents are from CB, and Modok has mentioned a few times they are not machined correctly. Should I change them?

At this point I'm stuck and don't know what to do next. It drives great other than the death zone. Bus tuning is a bitch! I am getting all the results I am reading that I should see. The very few times in 3rd and 4th that I am cruising with almost no throttle, I am for sure getting low 13's. But, yes it very quickly kicks to the main circuit and my foot is in it, and even more with the winds.

Different vents? Emulsion tubes?
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the issues you are experiencing MIGHT be the large flange header. Those are horrible!

Where is your O2 sensor? Are you SURE you have no exhaust leaks? If the sensor is within 12" of the exhaust outlet (or a leak) you will false-lean the sensor, no matter how rich you are jetted.

You are doing this right, and thinking. GOOD JOB!
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[TinCanFab]

I bought the cheap header to hack and modify to fit my behind the bumper tow hitch. My plan was to use it temporary and make my own later or possibly putting a turbo back on this engine again.... Never knew about the big flange problem.

I welded in the thick bung for the sensor since I read spacing it out a bit helps the reading. Because the outlet has been sectioned to clear the hitch, this was the only accessible spot to put the bung. I know that it should be mounted vertically, but it's not gonna fit. My wideband instructions recommended a 15 deg angle also, but I welded it in before I knew that. I don't plan on leaving the wideband in other than tuning, I understand moisture collecting in the sensor is a problem. I park in the garage so I wasn't too worried about that.

It's been about 40 miles since I installed the engine, copper exhaust gaskets and seems to be leak free. The tack welds on the header flange is misleading, it's been fully TIG welded on the inside by my buddy
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[71sbeetle]

I used the aircooled.net o2 sensor adapter to put my sensor in while I tune on my 65:
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Oxygen-Sensor-Adapter-Pipe-Small-3-Bolt-Flange-p/o2adapter.htm
Works decent but like your setup above mine is aiming almost straight down because in both other possible direction it either hits the apron or the quietpack muffler. But it's temporary so I am not worried.
I've been working on tuning this engine for a couple of weeks and I am about ready to take the crappy Oh Ohh 9 out and throw it at whoever invented it!
Looks like I will need to spend even more money to buy a new dizzy, ACN doesn't carry the real SVDA anymore, so I guess I'll have to settle for the Pertronix Ignitor 3 SVDA .....
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[KTPhil]

Condensation can rust the sensor when it is in the 6 o'clock position. Kinda vulnerable down there, too.


What about 9 o'clock but a little closer to the flange?

[TinCanFab]

[sled]

ok so take this with a grain of salt, but here are my findings with my most recent engine

1776
stock heads
110 cam
019 dist
40 IDF 70
28 vents
120 main
47.5 idle
200 air

I had the same issue you are having, no matter what I did it would run close to stoich at freeway speeds (50-60mph) on flat ground. As soon as I started to pull a decent grade it would drop down to 12.8-13.2. I tried A LOT of jetting combinations. What finally did it was switching FROM F11's to F7's

I know that F11's are pretty much to go-to emulsion tube for most IDF engines, but for my application the engine apparently wanted the F7's.

I found this site to be an excellent resource. The article is long, but take your time and absorb as much as you can. Skip to the bottom for emulsion tube information

http://www.timsroadster.com/html/tuning_webers.html
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[stan_tichomirov]

^^I'm using F7s right now also, worth a try if you are into experimenting.

Stan
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F7s lean out less than the F11 family of tubes. F2 leans less than the F11 and F15.

Just remember that the idle/progression tune is vastly different for SVDA vs. Cent only ignition timing.
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[TinCanFab]

I just ordered the A1 exhaust from John, thanks for all the good advice in this thread! I'll report back later when it gets installed, I know it'll be a little wait but worth it.

Sled and Stan, I'll definately try the F7's after the header swap. I might as well wait so I don't have to do a whole other round of jetting once the exhaust changes the way it runs.
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[rbp]

Does anyone know what the effect of changing the AC's has on the readings. For example, if I am running 230 AC and 145 mains it seems that they are coming in around 3000 RPM. I would like to hold them off till say 3500 RPM. If I change the AC from 230 to 220 will that change both the RPM that the mains come in and also the richness? Does it have an effect on the richness at all?

[stan_tichomirov]

On my engine, changing airs does seem to affect things everywhere. For some reason larger airs don't seem to do it for me, with 200s things just seem cleaner overall so I stick to those and smaller. Try 200s if you have'em?

Stan
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USUALLY (not always), a smaller air will bring the mains in later.

Always make air jet changes 15-20 at a time, for a noticeable change. The smaller air will also make the main circuit slightly richer. But don't worry about that yet, get the main circuit "tip in" timed properly FIRST.
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[rbp]

Thanks John, I plan to follow your recommendation on a different post. It was to get the idles set first, then note where they drop out and the A/F readings on the way up. Use a large main jet so it is more obvious when they start to come on. Play with the AC till it comes in where you want. Once that is done change the main gas jet till you are at the WOT set point say mid 12 or there about. So next day I have time to play that's my plan.

[71sbeetle]

Here's what I'm dealing with right now:
Everything is set, jetting recommended by John
Right off of idle I get a super lean spot (17+) but wot it's in the 12s, I'm guessing 009 issue and saving up for svda (this car is making me broke fast! )
Other issue I have is when cold and when warmed up the idle RPM is about 300rpm higher when warm. I also noticed when warm after you shut the engine off I hear fuel sizzling coming down the throat of I think #2 cylinder. Floats ate set 10.5-32
Cold start pistons are still installed with block off plate.
Of course my 3/8-16 is the only tap that's missing from my tap and die set and I can't find any locally so I need to order one to mod the cold start circuit shut, I think that's one of my issues would you agree?
Get rid of 009 and set screw mod on cold start pistons?
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[rbp]

Did you get your LBI out of the low 11's? If so what was the issue? Did you set your LBI as the recommendation, i.e., find where the engine runs best then add 1/2 turn richer.

[71sbeetle]