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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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The Unique Characteristics of Redline "NS" version of their 75-90 synthetic looks to have all the best stuff for our VW transaxles. I posted this a few pages back, and have been using this stuff and noticed the improved shifting, similar to what there "MTL" offers. Except the "NS"version offers more protection for our types of transmission then the Redline MTL.
This truly has the benefits of GL4 and GL5 combined and with added bonus of proper amount of friction modifiers for easier shifting.
This is my vote for the best gear oil option available.
75W90 NS GL-5 Gear Oil
Designed for transmissions and transaxles - helps to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range
Popular in Ferrari, Porsche and Subaru transaxles
Musclecar applications like Ford Top Loader, Borg-Warner T-10 and Super T-10, and Muncie transmissions
Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W90 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness
Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
Helps with lock-up on weak limited-slip differentials-compatible with Red Line Limited Slip Friction Modifier for tuning slippage
Also used with clutch-type LSDs in racing for maximum lock up
Recommended for API GL-5, GL-6, MT-1, MIL-L-2105E and SAE J2360
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:33 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| mrcool wrote: |
| The challenge still stands for someone to prove that our transmissions require the added capabilities of GL-5. I don't get it. |
If you had ever opened up a gearbox and inspected the parts closely, you would get it.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:44 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
It depends on the application.
a VW car, with the exception of extreme track or offroad use, the loads are not high enough IMO to require GL5 rated oil. |
I agree with what you wrote here. The extreme pressure protection may also prove needed if a type 1 is pushing considerably more power than anything stock. |
Your logic is not wrong. Light loads means less wear.
Most of the gearboxes I rebuild are late IRS that were used with at least a 1600. Whenever I open up an early swing axle trans that was used with a 1200, I am amazed at the lack of wear on parts that in later gearboxes almost always have wear.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:03 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Synchros may be disposable but for the typical VW owner it cost a bundle to have them swapped out. An engine and tranny pull followed by a disassembly and reassembly. |
The vast majority of synchros I remove from core gearboxes about to be rebuilt are perfectly good. This indicates a driver that knows how to properly drive a manual transmission, and a car that is properly maintained. Some synchros are badly worn out by drivers who don't know what they're doing, or don't maintain their cars. Easily determined, usually only one synchro is wasted.
IME, worn out synchros isn't the most common cause for a trans rebuild. Bad bearings, popping out of gear, worn out reverse, and various other noise causing problems are what keeps rebuilders busy.
| Wildthings wrote: |
We are still waiting for a picture of a ring and pinion that was damaged by running GL-4 as well.
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Next time you're in Southern California, go into Rancho and ask if they can give you a shop tour. Usually around the VW Classic week. When you're on the tour, ask if you can see their scrap metal bin. You'll see hundreds of worn out ring and pinions.
The cost of a good used German 3.88 has more than doubled in the last few years. The R&Ps they are getting from cores are now mostly worn out. The way things are going, in the near future, most rebuilds will feature a new R&P
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:56 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Synchros may be disposable but for the typical VW owner it cost a bundle to have them swapped out. An engine and tranny pull followed by a disassembly and reassembly. |
The vast majority of synchros I remove from core gearboxes about to be rebuilt are perfectly good. This indicates a driver that knows how to properly drive a manual transmission, and a car that is properly maintained. Some synchros are badly worn out by drivers who don't know what they're doing, or don't maintain their cars. Easily determined, usually only one synchro is wasted.
IME, worn out synchros isn't the most common cause for a trans rebuild. Bad bearings, popping out of gear, worn out reverse, and various other noise causing problems are what keeps rebuilders busy. |
Yes always blame it on the driver. I am sure it was the driver that made my present GTA transmission start to shift poorly within a few miles of when I swapped over to the GL-5 oil now recommended by GTA. Yes I will likely not tear into the tranny and replace the synchro until I must go in to it for some other reason, but I will do what I have done when I FU and ran GL-5 in the past and keep trying different oils until I can at least improve the shifting a bit again. The GL-5 oil being promoted by GTA was a major mistake to use in my mind and took the pleasure out of driving what had been until the GL-5 was used a nice shifting tranny.
| Quote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
We are still waiting for a picture of a ring and pinion that was damaged by running GL-4 as well.
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Next time you're in Southern California, go into Rancho and ask if they can give you a shop tour. Usually around the VW Classic week. When you're on the tour, ask if you can see their scrap metal bin. You'll see hundreds of worn out ring and pinions.
The cost of a good used German 3.88 has more than doubled in the last few years. The R&Ps they are getting from cores are now mostly worn out. The way things are going, in the near future, most rebuilds will feature a new R&P |
So these failures are so rare that I must travel to southern California to see one, interesting. I once worked in a truck shop that threw out a failed gear set or three a week that had died while running GL-5 oils, in the VW world that would have been proof enough to condemn the running of GL-5 oils. |
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
So these failures are so rare that I must travel to southern California to see one, interesting. |
You consider hundreds to be rare?
_________________
Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| jpaull wrote: |
The Unique Characteristics of Redline "NS" version of their 75-90 synthetic looks to have all the best stuff for our VW transaxles. I posted this a few pages back, and have been using this stuff and noticed the improved shifting, similar to what there "MTL" offers. Except the "NS"version offers more protection for our types of transmission then the Redline MTL.
This truly has the benefits of GL4 and GL5 combined and with added bonus of proper amount of friction modifiers for easier shifting.
This is my vote for the best gear oil option available.
75W90 NS GL-5 Gear Oil
Designed for transmissions and transaxles - helps to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range
Popular in Ferrari, Porsche and Subaru transaxles
Musclecar applications like Ford Top Loader, Borg-Warner T-10 and Super T-10, and Muncie transmissions
Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W90 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness
Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
Helps with lock-up on weak limited-slip differentials-compatible with Red Line Limited Slip Friction Modifier for tuning slippage
Also used with clutch-type LSDs in racing for maximum lock up
Recommended for API GL-5, GL-6, MT-1, MIL-L-2105E and SAE J2360 |
I have used this GL5 gear oil in my street strip Beetle as our local speed shop carries it. It has worked great and shifting seemed to be smoother 
_________________
Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| neil68 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
So these failures are so rare that I must travel to southern California to see one, interesting. |
You consider hundreds to be rare? |
If there are hundreds then someone should be able to post one single picture of a R&P verifiably damaged by GL-4 oil and have the documentation to back it up. One of your guy's claim is that most people run GL-5 anyway, so if there are hundreds of failures happening then it would be logical that GL-5 would be the blame for them. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:17 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| neil68 wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
The Unique Characteristics of Redline "NS" version of their 75-90 synthetic looks to have all the best stuff for our VW transaxles. I posted this a few pages back, and have been using this stuff and noticed the improved shifting, similar to what there "MTL" offers. Except the "NS"version offers more protection for our types of transmission then the Redline MTL.
This truly has the benefits of GL4 and GL5 combined and with added bonus of proper amount of friction modifiers for easier shifting.
This is my vote for the best gear oil option available.
75W90 NS GL-5 Gear Oil
Designed for transmissions and transaxles - helps to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range
Popular in Ferrari, Porsche and Subaru transaxles
Musclecar applications like Ford Top Loader, Borg-Warner T-10 and Super T-10, and Muncie transmissions
Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W90 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness
Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
Helps with lock-up on weak limited-slip differentials-compatible with Red Line Limited Slip Friction Modifier for tuning slippage
Also used with clutch-type LSDs in racing for maximum lock up
Recommended for API GL-5, GL-6, MT-1, MIL-L-2105E and SAE J2360 |
I have used this GL5 gear oil in my street strip Beetle as our local speed shop carries it. It has worked great and shifting seemed to be smoother |
Sweeet!!!
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Parkker
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2009
Posts: 35
Location: South Dakota
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:22 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Has anyone tried the newer Swepco 202 ?
Any thoughts? |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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I haven't tried it, but my thoughts are that Swepco 202 will probably do better at keeping its EP additive package in suspension than other synthetic gear lubes.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| neil68 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
So these failures are so rare that I must travel to southern California to see one, interesting. |
You consider hundreds to be rare? |
If there are hundreds then someone should be able to post one single picture of a R&P verifiably damaged by GL-4 oil and have the documentation to back it up. |
Actually that's hundreds of ring & pinions from only one transmission rebuilder...now multiply by the hundreds of other transmission shops around the world. Sad to see...since these German parts are no longer being made. Too bad we only had GL4 back in the day.
_________________
Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| neil68 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| neil68 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
So these failures are so rare that I must travel to southern California to see one, interesting. |
You consider hundreds to be rare? |
If there are hundreds then someone should be able to post one single picture of a R&P verifiably damaged by GL-4 oil and have the documentation to back it up. |
Actually that's hundreds of ring & pinions from only one transmission rebuilder...now multiply by the hundreds of other transmission shops around the world. Sad to see...since these German parts are no longer being made. Too bad we only had GL4 back in the day. |
And still not one picture of a R&P that was verifiably damaged by running GL-4. Your logic multiplied by hundreds would just as well prove that GL-5 ruins gear sets since that is what most people supposedly run. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:12 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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GL-5 is specifically for added EP protection of the R&P. Sounds like you're arguing just for the sake of debate.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76949
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:13 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| gears wrote: |
| GL-5 is specifically for added protection of the R&P. You're arguing just for the sake of argument. |
Thank you.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:36 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| gears wrote: |
| GL-5 is specifically for added EP protection of the R&P. Sounds like you're arguing just for the sake of debate. |
So no gear sets ever wear out running GL-5 oils? What isolated little world do you live in anyway?
GL-4 oils are designed to both protect low offset hypoid gearsets like VW uses and to provide good shifting which is why VW and other manufactures spec GL-4 oils. The published numbers for the four ball wear test also show that many GL-4 oils offer equal or even superior protection when compared to equivalently priced GL-5 oils.
I want my gear boxes to last 200K plus miles without the repeated HIGH needless expense of tearing them down to have the synchros replaced when they quit doing their job well in short order. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Since I've sold thousands of racing gearsets to Porsche racers over the years, we see the result from time to time of some racer mistakenly using GL-4 in place of GL-5. I can probably share some photos .. I just don't have time to look for anything today. It's moving day in my household ..
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com
Last edited by gears on Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| gears wrote: |
| Since I've sold thousands of racing gearsets to Porsche racers over the years, we seen the result from time to time of some racer mistakenly using GL-4 in place of GL-5. I can probably share some photos .. I just don't have time to look for anything today. It's moving day in my household .. |
I assume that this means you can not supply a photo of a VW gearset that has been damaged by running GL-4 oil. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76949
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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| gears wrote: |
| You're arguing just for the sake of argument. |
Exhibit A
| Wildthings wrote: |
I assume that this means you can not supply a photo of a VW gearset that has been damaged by running GL-4 oil. |
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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No reason to act like an A**. Rancho (and plenty of other shops) have seen VW gears raced with inferior oil, which have failed prematurely. They end up in the trash can, not on the bench for photos.
The VW and Porsche transaxles are so similar (same hypoid offset referred to below), that it bogles my mind how closed minded you are.
"In order to fit a compact transmission with the requisite features in the 911, Porsche uses very steep hypoid angles on the ring & pinion gears. This make these parts, the most highly stressed part of Porsche transmissions. This requires a GL-5 rated lubricant to protect these components against premature failure. Ring and pinions are problematic areas of these transmissions and require careful setup for any 901, 915, 930, or G50 used for competition or high-horsepower applications."
http://rennsportsystems.com
http://rennsportsystems.com/letstalk-2/4-how-to-ma...essscluct/
Porsche has always recommended GL5, even though their trans components are huge compared to VW.
VWs with stock engines don't need GL5, so VW doesn't specify it.
Posted among my gallery pics years ago:
"Damage to Factory GT3 gear, the result of using GL4 gear lube in a race car"
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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