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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: Greenhorn needs 091 tranny advice |
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Just bought a used 091 "6-Rib" Bus tranny to be used in a buggy frame I'm having built. The frame will have a type 1 torsion housing & frame-horns. Anyway, to run a Type 1 motor with this behemoth transaxle, I've heard modification are necessary.
So, here we have a "Greenhorn" (me) seeking expert advice.
Please advise,
-BT |
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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: Greenhorn needs 091 tranny advice |
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Okay, - I know, I know, - there is nothing worse than a newbie asking a question that has been answered a thousand times.
You see, I know this because I am an "addict" on another board called www.bonnevilleamerica.com .
Yep, all of us Triumph parallel-twin "experts" are talking away with eachother about Wiseco Big-bore kits, Falicon counter-weight cranks, 39mm Keihin FCR flatsides w/accelerator pumps vs. 38mm Amals, and on and on. Then, some newbie comes in and asks if he should switch to a different brand of spark-plugs.
So, I know it's exasperating, but, please, humor me. I'm a quick study.
-BT
PS - See my M/C pictures on the aforementioned forum at the following link.
http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=64 |
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bajagunny Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2004 Posts: 109
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: 091 bus box |
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yes you will need to shorten or replace the output shaft
you will also need to have longer studs installed in your case (lower ones)
the clutch cable sleeve will be too long also so you ll have to mod that and depending on how your clutch is set up your cable will be just barely long enough
other than that all else should work
mine had to have all these mods i had to shorten my shift rod and had to fab a 17mm wrench to get to my drain plug because the 10 degree tilt mount kit i used blocked access to the plug |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, you'll have to shorten the input shaft, and use the longer engine studs, unless you plane to tun a T4 engine. You will also have to run the 091 starter, unless you swap the bellhousing with one from a 3-rib.
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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So, this is what I've learned so far...
1. Shorten the input/output shaft 1/2" to run a Type 1 motor
or...
2. Acquire & install an earlier 002 Bus bell-housing to escape shortening the input/output shaft.
and...
3. Get longer lower motor mounting bolts.
and...
4. Clutch cable sleeve will be too long (but my frame builder has been made aware of this, and he will prefit a 6-rib tranny he has laying around).
and...
5. Simply forget running a Type 1 & opt for running a Type 4 2.0L (to avert modifying anything).
NOW, HERE'S MORE QUESTIONS.
1. Will the kit that is made to fit a Type 2 Bus tranny into a Type 1 Torsion & frame-horns [ as seen at the following link http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1373 ] workwith this newer 091 "6-Rib" Bus tranny?
2. Do I use the 15-5/8" shortened "Sway-a-way" axles with this 091 setup (like I would with the earlier 002 bus transaxle)?
BTW, thanks for responding to this lowly greenhorn.
Can you do it again, - can you, can you!?!!
-BT |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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BikerThug wrote: |
1. Will the kit that is made to fit a Type 2 Bus tranny into a Type 1 Torsion & frame-horns [ as seen at the following link http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1373 ] workwith this newer 091 "6-Rib" Bus tranny?
2. Do I use the 15-5/8" shortened "Sway-a-way" axles with this 091 setup (like I would with the earlier 002 bus transaxle)?
BTW, thanks for responding to this lowly greenhorn.
Can you do it again, - can you, can you!?!!
-BT |
1. Yes, it will work fine, but IMO there are better ways to mount it. Most people run them, and they work fine.
2. Yes, they are fine to use with it, However, if I was you and I haven't bought the axles yet, I would look for a set of pre-'85 Porsche 944 or 924 stubs and axles.
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Daniel,
Thanks for your charitable response to this certifiable newbie.
It would be interesting to know your "better way" of mounting the 091 Transaxle to the Type 1 frame because I got the equipment to do much (Enco milling machine w/digital read-out, Enco metal lathe, a heavy drill-press, and a 230volt wire-feeding MIG welder).
Anyway, if you ever get a Triumph Bonneville, let me know and I'll guide you through many modifications (see pic below).
All the best,
-BT |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty much any of these...
The mid mount and the bellhousing mount (if you have a cage to mount it too) are the best, or the mounts that SKidmark used in his build.
On my next rail, I will probably use the mid-mount, the bellhousing mount, and the part of the 10-degree mount that goes on the bellhousing end of the tranny(with urethane mounts on all of them). I'm sure that would be overkill, but you can never have to much overkill...
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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subybaja Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2005 Posts: 1026 Location: Anchorage
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:18 am Post subject: |
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General good tranny info:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143138
Page 3 shows one of those urethane mounts installed, as well as an older bolt-on one that's out of production.
Those 10deg mounts all work for 091 as well as 002? (can I swap out my 002 for an 091 down the road?) |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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The transmission article is a work in progress, so maybe I can finish the post about the bus tranny conversion soon. There's still a lot of info to cover in it.
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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Big Dave Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2005 Posts: 271
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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BikerThug wrote: |
So, this is what I've learned so far...
1. Shorten the input/output shaft 1/2" to run a Type 1 motor |
Yes.
BikerThug wrote: |
2. Acquire & install an earlier 002 Bus bell-housing to escape shortening the input/output shaft. |
No, changing the bellhousing to a 3 rib/002 unit lets you keep your type 1 starter and clutch setup. You still have to shorten the input shaft, or if you are stealing the bellhousing from a 3 rib, change out the input shaft as well, since it the same, but already 1/2" shorter.
BikerThug wrote: |
3. Get longer lower motor mounting bolts. |
Yes, but the 091 bellhousing is 1/2" thicker than the 002. It is possible to use the the stock type 1 studs if you back them out of the engine case a couple turns though. |
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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks "Big Dave,"
Based on your No. 3 answer, it kinda baffles me why someone (like me) would switch bell-housings when they are undecided which motor they (I) will be running. Because, if I'm perceiving this right, the only reason one would switch to a 002 bell-housing is to run a motor they already possess.
Now I do have an old type 1 case with stock innards, but lately I've been leaning towards simply getting a rebuildable type 4 motor (like the one listed here http://portland.craigslist.org/pts/139064112.html ).
Then I can largely dispense with many of these unnecessary modifications, - no?
-BT |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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BikerThug wrote: |
Now I do have an old type 1 case with stock innards, but lately I've been leaning towards simply getting a rebuildable type 4 motor (like the one listed here http://portland.craigslist.org/pts/139064112.html ).
Then I can largely dispense with many of these unnecessary modifications, - no?
-BT |
Another thing you have to consider is the gearing of the 091. If you would be using a stock T1 engine, the gearing would really suck for you. With a stock T4 engine(2.0L), the gearing would be a lot better, since this was the engine the 091 was geared for anyway.
Dave, I disagree with you about backing the studs out of the case instead of getting longer mounting bolts. IMO that would be too much stress on the engine case.
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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Jowlz The Anti-Purist
Joined: May 02, 2005 Posts: 2464 Location: Tunkhannock, PA
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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BikerThug wrote: |
Thanks "Big Dave,"
Based on your No. 3 answer, it kinda baffles me why someone (like me) would switch bell-housings when they are undecided which motor they (I) will be running. Because, if I'm perceiving this right, the only reason one would switch to a 002 bell-housing is to run a motor they already possess.
Now I do have an old type 1 case with stock innards, but lately I've been leaning towards simply getting a rebuildable type 4 motor (like the one listed here http://portland.craigslist.org/pts/139064112.html ).
Then I can largely dispense with many of these unnecessary modifications, - no?
-BT |
If I remember correctly.People also switch to the 002 bellhousing so they can run a standard beetle starter, not an uncommon late bus starter. _________________ The honey-do list put my project on hold....... |
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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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I'm curious, Jowiz, - it's seems like a lot of trouble to go through just so that one can use a "Beetle Starter." Are 091 (6-Rib) starters hard to come by?
The guy that sold me the used 091 (6-Rib) Transaxle, gave me a starter that (he said) went with it (see pic below).
Now I wonder if he gave me the right starter.
Is there any way of verifying that the starter he gave me is, indeed, an 091 starter (serial #, or whatever)?
BTW, as I was cleaning up this 6-Ribber, underneth some road grit on the underside was a sticker that said "German Transaxle of America." Then it gave an address in Bend, Oregon. So, I went and did a "google-search" and found their website [ http://www.gtainc.biz/ ]. It seems I snagged a newly rebuilt 6-Ribber for only 3 Benjys!
"What is one man's junk, is another man's treasure."
-BT |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: |
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The 091 starters are a little bit more expensive than the T1 units. You can have the starter mounting area on the bellhousing machined down so the T1 starter will fit, but I don't see a reason to do so if you have the starter that fits the 091. There should be a p/n on it somewhere that you can reference, if you aren't sure if it is the one you need.
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Daniel,
I'm going to jot down that P/N#, but I'm not sure if I can locate a manufacturing list that will distinguish the P/N as definately being a 091 Bus starter.
We'll see.
-BT |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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I will try to check for you in the Bentley manual tonight. Ratwell's bus site or Type2.com probably has the codes on it somewhere, but you'd have to look for them. If you can't find them, and they aren't in my manual, I will try to look on my starter this weekend.
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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BikerThug Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2005 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Daniel,
I checked the P/N stamped on the the large cylindrical casing of the starter motor and found the following numbers - 091 911 023. There also was a sticker that said, "BOSCH - remanufactured" (then) "SR 87X."
I'm just guessing, but the first three numbers in the former aforementioned P/N number sequence was "091." That seems fairly conclusive that it was designed for an "091" tranny."
What the rest of the numbers stand for I haven't the foggiest idea.
Thoughts?
-BT |
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Daniel G Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, I don't really know what the rest of the numbers mean, either. Since it starts with 091, you know thats the right starter, so I don't guess it really matters. Maybe someone else here knows what the other numbers mean...
Daniel _________________ 1967 13 Window Deluxe
1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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