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Biscuit79 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2014 Posts: 25 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:57 pm Post subject: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Need some advice; I've got a 79 Auto Bay that started to have a clunking noise a little while back. It started very small and has gotten progressively worse. It happens when in reverse and gets worse when I'm turning. It also happens a bit when I'm in drive and turning at slower speeds. It does go away when speed increase though. All of this led us to believe it was the CV joints going bad so I replaced them a week ago and the same clunking was still there.... So then we decided to check the final drive oil level thinking it might be low. Once I removed the plug, oil came pouring out- it was about 2/3 of a regular sized mason jar. It's in the mason jar so that I could try to tell if it was mixed with any other fluid, but I'm not sure how to tell since its just a dark brown color. First thought would be that the ATF has leaked into it, but the level of the ATF is fine. It seems like the clunking would be linked to this problem, but maybe not. Any advice? Supposed to take it camping in 2 days, so in a bit of a bind |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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My guess would be that one of the seals (I think there are three) between the automatic section and the final drive section has failed and you have ATF mixed with your gear oil. The reason that the ATF isn't low is that the leak has been slow and going on for a long time and the ATF has been topped off a time or two. |
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Biscuit79 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2014 Posts: 25 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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That makes a lot of sense- especially since I haven't checked it in a while and the ATF hasn't really gone down much. In your opinion, is it a huge risk to just put about 150 miles on the bus before winter? Will replace the seals in the winter. Or should I drop the pan now and replace the oil? |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Biscuit79 wrote: |
That makes a lot of sense- especially since I haven't checked it in a while and the ATF hasn't really gone down much. In your opinion, is it a huge risk to just put about 150 miles on the bus before winter? Will replace the seals in the winter. Or should I drop the pan now and replace the oil? |
If you have had mixing of the oils you may already have had damage.
Pull the pan, inspect, and refill. |
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Bendejo Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2012 Posts: 122 Location: Denver
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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I would drain and refill both final drive and trans, do your trip, and monitor levels. |
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Biscuit79 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2014 Posts: 25 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Does anyone know where I can find a replacement gasket for the pan? Seems to be difficult to find. Or am I good reusing the old gasket until the winter when I replace all the seals? |
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Biscuit79 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2014 Posts: 25 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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old DKP driver Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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You may be able to purchase it from your local FLAPS
part # 003 321 371 cork gasket
part # 010 321 371B is Late and is rubber like a H2o vw
Since i used to do this for a living i wouldn't drive it 150 FEET let alone 150
miles.
$$$$$ Final Drive _________________ V.W.owner since 1967 |
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Biscuit79 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2014 Posts: 25 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Thanks for your advice DKP- not what I wanted to hear though... When I drop the pan, what should I be looking for in terms of damage to the final drive? Would it be obvious? |
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old DKP driver Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Here's the deal. when you pull the final drive filler plug and ATF comes out
the damage has already begun.
The ring gear & pinion shaft no longer have the correct lubrication and the
heat along with the thinned gear lube starts sharpening the gears as they
mesh.
Heck, you are back east try bus depot for the gaskets
Went back to an old post Final drive gasket 090 507 215 .. ALSO FROM Go
Westy
.
Chris _________________ V.W.owner since 1967 |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:03 am Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Do not drive your bus.
Smell the fluid in the mason jar. It should still smell only like gear oil, even after several years of use. If it has a solvent or paint thinner smell to it, it is likely mixed with ATF.
Shine a flashlight through the mason jar. If it has a cool orange or pink tint to it, it is probably mixed with ATF. It should actually be dark honey colored. Most of the time you can shine a light through it and examine, but with a smaller jar, like a baby food jar. You can't always see through gear oil, but most of the time you can.
If it seems thinner than 80/90 gear oil when you rub it between your fingers, it is likely contaminated.
Big tip off: You cannot reasonably overfill a gear box, because the normal method of filling is by a tube inserted into the filler port. You stop filling when it starts to ooze out. If you later pull the plug, and fluid comes running out in a fairly substantial quantity, then whatever is in there had to come from somewhere. In this case, it could only come from your transmission half.
Start surfing the classifieds for a transmission. Don't limit yourself to just Baywindows. You should have the 010 series, which was also used in Vanagons. Tip: the later Vanagon models were equipped with ATF cooling ports which is an advantage. |
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Biscuit79 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2014 Posts: 25 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Wanted to give an update- the oil in the final drive definitely had ATF in it- was much thinner than the oil that should have been in there. I checked the transmission fluid and there are no signs of the final drive oil mixing with it (so one piece of good news). I dropped the pan of the final drive to empty all the oil and then refilled it with the right stuff. I then started it up to see if the thunking was any better. It might have improved it slightly, but it's definitely still there. Since the final drive is essentially dead and has to be replaced, I decided to try to limp it along to the mini camping trips we have this month. Figured the worst that happens is the final drives fails and I have to replace (which I have to anyways). Drove it 60 miles round trip over the past week and babied it majorly especially when in reverse. I did check the ATF level, and it is slightly low (line is about 1mm from the low mark). I'm leaving it where it is at just because I don't want to add too much - will most likely end up in the final drive anyways. Plan is to limp it along for about another 100 miles this month and then drove the transmission, replace all the seals, and hopefully find a replacement ring and pinion for the final drive. Let me know if you come across one (will be taking a trip to a junk yard very soon) or if you have any advice for me. |
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VDubTech Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2002 Posts: 9142 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Not sure if it's compatible or not but I have an early automatic transmission complete with axles that I would love to get out of my way. It's a good transmission the guy I bought it from drove the Bus it was in before it was deemed unsafe for the road and pulled. I'm in NY but I will be going to the Volksfest show this weekend in Pataskala, OH, a little north of Columbus. I could bring it along with me if it's something you could use. Shipping would be $$$ I would think. _________________ First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=
borninabus wrote: |
a measurement of your rod would be extremely useful. |
notchboy wrote: |
my dad wasnt a belittling cock when he tought me how to wrench on cars. |
EverettB wrote: |
One photo = good for reference.
10 photos = douchebaggery |
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kerian159 Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2008 Posts: 344 Location: Pensacola, FL
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:11 am Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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VW changed the Automatic in '76 IIRC from the Vacuum operated version used in Type III's and early Type II's to a Hydrolic version that is self contained. _________________ 1976 Type II Westy P22
"Growing older, but not up!" |
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Sage79 Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2008 Posts: 433 Location: Holland MI
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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I'm quite sure the final drives are the same for both the 003 and 010 automatics. So if only the final drive (differential) portion is damaged, one from either vintage of auto would work. _________________ Dirk
'79 Westy 2.0FI
'73 Sportsmobile 1.7dual Solex 003Auto - now my daughter's
'77 delux 2.0FI 090Auto - now my son's |
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VDubTech Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2002 Posts: 9142 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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kerian159 wrote: |
VW changed the Automatic in '76 IIRC from the Vacuum operated version used in Type III's and early Type II's to a Hydrolic version that is self contained. |
I know the transmission changed, which is why I said I had an EARLY one that I wasn't sure would work with the OP's LATER Bus. The internals are interchangeable. _________________ First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=
borninabus wrote: |
a measurement of your rod would be extremely useful. |
notchboy wrote: |
my dad wasnt a belittling cock when he tought me how to wrench on cars. |
EverettB wrote: |
One photo = good for reference.
10 photos = douchebaggery |
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Biscuit79 Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2014 Posts: 25 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Thanks a bunch again for all the help. Nice to know that I have a few more years to pick from. VDubTech- I sent you a PM. |
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Sage79 Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2008 Posts: 433 Location: Holland MI
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Just a follow-up: I helped Biscuit79 pull one from a scap yard and got the new diff on with the original transmission and that did the trick.
Also, the 003 and 090/010 diffs are not the same, don't want to lead anyone astray. I think the joining flange is even a different size so they will NOT interchange. The lash adjustment is also accomplished in a different way: the 003 has a large nut similar to the final drives but the 090 has shims. _________________ Dirk
'79 Westy 2.0FI
'73 Sportsmobile 1.7dual Solex 003Auto - now my daughter's
'77 delux 2.0FI 090Auto - now my son's |
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alman72 Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2014 Posts: 2573 Location: MICHIGAN
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:02 am Post subject: Re: 79 Auto having issues- Final Drive? |
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Sage79 wrote: |
Just a follow-up: I helped Biscuit79 pull one from a scap yard and got the new diff on with the original transmission and that did the trick.
Also, the 003 and 090/010 diffs are not the same, don't want to lead anyone astray. I think the joining flange is even a different size so they will NOT interchange. The lash adjustment is also accomplished in a different way: the 003 has a large nut similar to the final drives but the 090 has shims. |
What scrap yard are you using? you can PM me if you want to keep it on the down low.. |
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