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MConstable Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004 Posts: 1822 Location: Saint Charles IL
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:05 pm Post subject: Case machining... |
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I've been researching, reading, checking feedback etc.
But I'd like advice from you on who does the best work.
Nothing special, just good quality machining, full flow, shuffle pins, stroke relief.
Most importantly, the Bob Hoover mods...the shops I've asked don't even know what it entails, and I don't want to be the Guinea pig.
Thanks! |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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I do feel that Mr. Hoover's modifications do have benefits, but there have been tens of thousands of performance engines built without them without issue. They just don't seem to be must have modifications. If that is a must have for your machine shop resume, you may be searching a while. |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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A small-time (in comparison to a big machine shop) machinist might be the best solution for you. There are members here who might chime-in. I'm sure their quality will far exceed high turnout machine shops. My machine shop is really hit-or-miss. I only continue to go because they'll fix any of their mess-ups for free, they're convenient because of proximity, and price. I can get a bored, stroked, full flow, and line-bored case machined for under $200. I would certainly suggest my machinist to anyone because of their lack of precision. |
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the2ndcashboy Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2007 Posts: 827 Location: Houston
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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bugguy1967 wrote: |
I would certainly suggest my machinist to anyone because of their lack of precision. |
Umm, what? _________________
SRP1 wrote: |
You see....... He talks in code and translation requires a priest, geologist, astronomer, biophysicist, and Indiana Jones. |
modok wrote: |
If anything comes out perfect it just means your measuring tools are substandard. |
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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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You can do the full flow and stroker clearancing yourself, with hand power tools. I agree with the above comment, that the Hoover mods aren't necessary. Not sure shuffle pins are critical either, unless you are building a 250+ HP drag monster. _________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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bpritchert87 The Idea Man
Joined: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1507 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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MConstable,
I am glad you brought this topic up. Not trying to thread jack but trying to add to the conversation. I had read very good things about Brothers machine shop. http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/
There doesn't seem to be an agreement between many on who is best machine shop or what mods are needed/recommended.. sort of like welded vs new cranks... DPR is atleast the most recommended place to get a welded crank but there doesn't seem to be the same standard for machining from what i have found.
Certainly, alot depends on the combo but if there was a general guideline to follow it would be helpful.. as is "I recommend shuffle pins once your are over xyz horsepower".. certainly, some machining is needed in general when building a stroker but what about the other mods being done?
I have been researching quite a while on the below topics and sure wish there was a general agreement on needed/recommended
shuffle pins (when are the needed/recommended who does the best work?)
lifter bore bushing (I have read that brothers machine shop is really good/the best but when is it needed.. after what lift etc)
Align boring (where to bring your case/who does quality work)
case decking
boring for larger cylinders
Full flow
drill and tap all of the oil gallies
Hoover mods
etc..
maybe someone with alot of experience will chime in and provide some more insight..
Neil68 posted his recommendation for shuffle pins/hp, thanks Neil! _________________ Knowledge is Power Read and Learn !!!
The Intelligence of a Man should not be measured by his age....
check out my sand rover t bug build! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=287204 |
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5927 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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If you are confident enough to build an engine, I think you should be able to perform the "hoover" case mods. Understanding what you're doing and getting up the nerve to do it the first time, is half of the job. Then send the case out to brothers/rimco/etc for the specialty work. I've used Rimco for the last two cases, and was very happy. Their prices are in the upper range, but they caught an uneven side to side deck issue and corrected it for me.
SD _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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yamaducci Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010 Posts: 2335 Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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Rimco has been around since the first Cal-Look bug and under new management in the last few years. Brothers is the newest shop with possibly the newest high precision machines. There work is awesome, precise and fast. They did the lifter bores with groove, oil squirters, dished my Wiseco's, cut down cylinders and balanced everything perfectly (See my Pics). DPR for all the rotating parts. I did the lower Hoover mods myself. Call Brothers or Rimco and ask if you don't want to do them yourself. DMS (Demello) and FAT are also top notch but mainly cater to Racers.
And I just saw you are from Florida so Fisher Buggies is a great place that's been around for years (decades). They also have one of the fastest VW's on the planet. _________________ -John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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And I always have to throw this in just to be an ass......all of the Hoover mods are already in type 4 engines from the factory....
Ray |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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hoover mods not necessary well oil isant necessary either neither is new bearings or good line bore or good valve guides, straight crank, good lobes. just look at all the wore out crap running around. I did all my "hoover" mods before I ever heard of him. so.....to me there just normal engine building practices along with a lot more. |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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A while back I contacted brothers and Rimco for welding up the thrust on a type IV and some other type IV stuff. Brothers said they did not weld up thrust saddles and I felt like I had to break their arm to do anything else. Rimco was way more enthused and did the work I wanted. My case was too far gone so I did not have the work done to comment on. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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You could contact Rocky Jennings He may do that kind of thing. (Hoover Mods) He will likely reject your case though he is pretty particular about cases.
Rocky Jennings did my lifter bores:
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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the2ndcashboy wrote: |
bugguy1967 wrote: |
I would certainly suggest my machinist to anyone because of their lack of precision. |
Umm, what? |
Wouldn't. Left letters out. |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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Does anyone know a machine shop that decks the halves of the crankcase by referring to the main tunnel's true center, instead of the case halves?
I had to tell my machinist why it needed to be done and we came up with solutions on how to perform the job. I've gotten two cases back since then, and they've been only a couple thousandths off per side. |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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bugguy1967 wrote: |
Does anyone know a machine shop that decks the halves of the crankcase by referring to the main tunnel's true center, instead of the case halves?
I had to tell my machinist why it needed to be done and we came up with solutions on how to perform the job. I've gotten two cases back since then, and they've been only a couple thousandths off per side. |
That's along the lines of the Hoover mods. Decking to the crank does have merit, but that's not the way VW machined the cases from the factory. It also comes down to cost. Decking to the crank does require extra measurement, and setup time, regaurdless of how short, or long that extra set up takes. There is a small percent that would be willing to pay more than a simple deck to the parting line. I've seen standard decking around $50-$70, and you would be surprised at how many would decline the decking to the crank if they were told they would have to pay even an extra $20-$30 for it. May I ask how much your machinist charged you for your decking to the crank? |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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$50. I don't think he does it for everyone unless they bring it up. He has something that simulates a crankshaft main journal that he checks off of. |
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yamaducci Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010 Posts: 2335 Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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theKbStockpiler wrote: |
A while back I contacted brothers and Rimco for welding up the thrust on a type IV and some other type IV stuff. Brothers said they did not weld up thrust saddles and I felt like I had to break their arm to do anything else. Rimco was way more enthused and did the work I wanted. My case was too far gone so I did not have the work done to comment on. |
This would be the first time I have ever heard anything bad about Brothers Machine.
My Take on this is you were asking them to do unrealistic work on a case that was too far gone AND they are not willing to put their good name on it.. Yes they could do it; would it be worth it....No. They are too busy for for saving junk case and probably didn't want to insult you with a crazy high labor charge. _________________ -John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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I wouldent have rip off me co do squat. brother didnt want to do it because it wasent a good idea. when you find somebody willing to do something stupid or rong draw a circle around them and remember to stay away. those bronze lifter bores are nice but still need a small trough ofr the over stroke of the lifter so it gets oil to the pushrod/rocker/shaft/head full tyme . the groove just sends it to the next lifter but dosent address the timed spirt that needs to be a full time flow. |
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MConstable Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2004 Posts: 1822 Location: Saint Charles IL
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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Ok, dumb question for today, how does the grooved lifter bore sleeves help lifter oiling? |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Case machining... |
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bugguy1967 wrote: |
Does anyone know a machine shop that decks the halves of the crankcase by referring to the main tunnel's true center, instead of the case halves?
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I considered making bushings to deck the case with it assembled and the bearings in place using the AMC-c4 mill, but not sure if it would really save any time, and i don't think anybody would ever pay to have it done. There is also a lack of sturdy places to fixture the case in this way.
A very simple way, is measure where the line bore is in relation to the case split, then mark how much shim to put at each corner to make it even. You could do that yourself, with the handy "indicator in a block" tool (height gauge). If the machinist is not familiar with using shim stock of different thickness to level blocks and heads before resurfacing, then, it can be up to you to educate them or not that's how everything is done on "real" engines |
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