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What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:
When I was racing my buggy, I would use points made for Rabbits in my 009 distributor. They had a stronger spring and would resist bouncing much better.

brad


Do you happen to remember the part number?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

on all but one vw I said the heck with points some 30 plus years aag and have installed pertronix, never looked back, no regrets. Do have a very original 66 Bug that is not convsrted, but it is a garage queen, the daily rides get Pertronix. learned from my Dad who installed an electronic ignition on the family 63 microbus when I was a weee little lad. did like wise on my first bug.

poitns are great for originality cars, but for daily use cars, considering ease of maintanence and improved performance, go with a Pertronix or simular. get rid of the points, thats the point!!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

re: points for Rabbits. Sorry, those aren't any different... 01011.

I've heard that the 01052 points might be a bit sturdier than the 01011s.


tasb wrote:
Quote:
Maybe someone like Glenn that uses a lot of Beru/Bremi stuff can post some cross reference numbers for common Bosch stuff.

Sounds like a project for Andy: Glutamodo. Wink


If I had the kind of source materials I have for Bosch, I might... alas, I don't.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

glutamodo wrote:
re: points for Rabbits. Sorry, those aren't any different... 01011.

I've heard that the 01052 points might be a bit sturdier than the 01011s.


tasb wrote:
Quote:
Maybe someone like Glenn that uses a lot of Beru/Bremi stuff can post some cross reference numbers for common Bosch stuff.

Sounds like a project for Andy: Glutamodo. Wink


If I had the kind of source materials I have for Bosch, I might... alas, I don't.


Yes...they are all the same basic points....but typically the early GTI's before they went electronic ignition near the end...had the 01030 points (for 009 and 050 distributor with the stiffer spring)....dropped in in later tuneups for those who drove in a more spirited manner or had the engines modified.

It was also common for normal "rabbit" Jetta and Sirrocco drivers to have these same points sold to them (whether they needed them or not)...by enterprising mechanics ....what un-knowledgeable rabbit owner could turn down high performance points.... Wink

I think this may be what he was thinking of. Not a stock rabbit points set....but a common one, Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

glutamodo wrote:
re: points for Rabbits. Sorry, those aren't any different... 01011.

I've heard that the 01052 points might be a bit sturdier than the 01011s.


tasb wrote:
Quote:
Maybe someone like Glenn that uses a lot of Beru/Bremi stuff can post some cross reference numbers for common Bosch stuff.

Sounds like a project for Andy: Glutamodo. Wink


If I had the kind of source materials I have for Bosch, I might... alas, I don't.


This one does include some of the common parts related to the cars:
http://beru.federalmogul.com/tools-services/catalogue/beru-application-list-for-old-timer-cars

And this one does include the part numbers for Beru, Delco, Bosch, Bosch with short numbers, Bremi, Doduco, Ducellier, Facet, Garbe-Lahmeyer, Valeo, Volkswagen and a few others and it does include pictures and replacement parts.
http://beru.federalmogul.com/tools-services/catalogue/ignition-parts
It does also cover additional information like distributor rotor resistance or capacitances for capacitors or the cable length for capacitors.
Not everything is 100% correct....
(EDIT: to be more specific here: the only mismatch, I found, was about the cable length of the capacitors, which did sometimes not match the Bosch documentation)

If there is a small Number like this "nicht entstört119" then you can find the translation for 119 at page 333

btw: EVL 030 (no longer available) can be replaced by EVL 029, it just does not have the lower groove

Happy reading!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
So not to get too geeky on you….but since you guys brought up points (always been very interested)…..even though I am not really a points user other than backup anymore…but might be at some point if I use them as a triggering mechanism for a different ignition (no current through the points)…..and for 2/3 of my ACVW driving life…I used points…..I thought I would share what I know and think about the brands I used.

Back in the day when there were no quality “questions” about Bosch points, they were the benchmark and pretty much were just perfect for any application…especially the 009/050 tiger stripe points. There was really no need to look at anything else.

Outside of a couple of set of Beru and a couple of sets of Mahle-Knecht points….both of which were just not easy to find back where I lived in the day and I have no examples of….pretty much my range of usage were Bosch, Standard Motor Products (Blue Streak), Borg warner (which is now owned by Standard Motor Products)/ Wells (now Airtex-Wells), and NAPA-Echlin/Niehoff.

It’s hard to say who owns who…but Standard Motor Products lists that their companies and the products they make for NAPA include brand names:

Standard
Borg Warner Division (BWD)/Niehoff
NAPA/Echlin
NAPA Belden
Sorensen
Intermotor


Anyway…because I ran on points for so long (and close to a million miles) and mainly on 411,412 and 914 with D-jet and all with relatively high compression and leaner burn settings than the pig rich factory settings…..and with the factory coils being just barely adequate for that set up…… BETTER POINTS made a huge difference when I could get them.

If the points started to burn and got that little “peak” on either electrode….dwell time was affected and that makes a large difference with D-jet injection. So I started paying attention to the details (materials and build methods) of those points that worked better.

For years the Bosch 1 237 013 092 tiger stripe points for 009 and 050 worked just fine. As Glenn noted many times….great build quality, reinforced FR4/Bakelite/phenolic rubbing block and all tungsten electrodes…what more could you want. Those were not always common stock around where I lived. And the basic Bosch 01011…were barely adequate even before the build quality dropped off…then came back up…then dropped off again.

Looking around for better and more available points……I found that in order…the best brands of points I have used have been:

SMP Blue Streak
SMP “P” series
Bosch Tiger Stripe for 009/050
SMP “T” series
NAPA Echlin
NAPA Niehoff

Note:
Borg Warner and Wells….I always found to be poor knock offs after a certain point in time.
At one point in time Wells was a really highly respected name in ignition products with great quality.
By the mid to late 80’s the products were pretty poor in materials as they went third world.
But they began to have some uncanny manufacturing similarities to some of the SMP and NAPA products….and later in the “internet age” I found out why because all of these guys were manufacturing either complete parts or sub-assemblies for each other in various grades.

It’s interesting that the crappy Wells points can turn into pretty high quality NAPA Echlin points with just a few “detail” changes or material changes….all else the same.

So here are some of the point sets in my museum and the differences:

SMP Blue Streak


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So this is a dirty used set of Blue Streak points. Make note that the frame/bracket is Yellow zinc plated instead of solid copper like classic Blue Streak points.
Even SMP went through a “cheaper made” phase with a different letter code back in the late 90s’. Also note the fork in lower right that holds the lubricating wick. These are really just “P” series…..what were eventually inserted into their line between the Blue-Streak and basic “T” series.

At one point in time the cost differences between these parts were significant. “T” series running about $7-8, “P” series could be $10-11 and Blue-Streak even back in the day were a scary $13-15 a set.

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Things of note in the pictures: Very large heavy, thick electrode, solid tungsten with a center hole to prevent the pit or tit from forming, large solid square bushing to ride on, very heavy duty arm mounting, heavy duty swaging for the axle pin.

Electrode diameter 0.210”

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NOS “classic” blue streak box….and contents

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Note the 100% copper HEAVY frame, lube wick, heavy gauge wire etc.

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Note the very thick, flat and level electrodes…and they are solid tungsten…note…that there is no crown line on either electrode of either tungsten plate or tungsten cap like you see on other points (later pictures)

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Very heavy electrode with center vent to prevent pit/peak forming. The only reason the electrode diameter is so large is to have pretty much standard size area with the hole in the center.

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The spring is about 3X the strength of Bosch 01011 points. It’s also stainless steel.

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Also if you notice…the spring has a copper conductor spring strip on the inside. SMP does this on all of their “P” series points. It’s also part of why the spring tension is so high.

This combined spring thickness is 0.025”

SMP “T” Series

Standard motor products has three main series:

1. Blue Streak (everything is better and heavier than stock)

2. “P” series…which is a basic OEM replacement points set (standard frame material, standard electrode size, standard wire gauge) but with improvements like the copper conductor, solid tungsten electrodes, higher spring tension and better construction

3. “T” series which SMP’s version of a stock point set….stock spring tension, stock electrode diameter, stock frame material…..but may be better than basic points just from build quality.

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This is an SMP “T”-series…same basic construction as the blue streaks….but lighter spring tension, no copper conductor spring, narrower pivot arm….an SMP version of a basic points set, but still nice…solid copper arm and thick solid tungsten…very flat/parallel electrodes.

Still a very nice points set for a stock replacement offering.
Electrode Diameter: 0.186” (same as the Wells version of this)

NOTE: at about half the price of blue streaks back in the day…one would ask why you would pay more for blue streak when these are quite nice…only about $2 more than Bosch.


I found these “T” series points had issues in very hot climates on certain cars…..like my 412…but not my Saab 900 or my one Chevy that I ever owned.

If your car is similar to my VW 412….with a sealed engine compartment…. in 100°+ degree weather driving long distance…it’s not uncommon to have distributor temperatures measure up to around 275°F.
They can get hot enough that cheap plastics on the condenser bung can distort…and cheap epoxy on rotor wires from the carbon brush to the tip can get tacky.

Add to this….the point sets get VERY hot. If you don’t believe that…understand the temperature generated at 1500 times per minute within the arc of the points that gets the tungsten hot enough to cause pits and burning. The pivot arm attached to the contact gets very hot too.

I found several times that in hot engine bays like mine in hot environments there is just not enough cooling and the narrower arm of the T-series points would…..distort…causing the contacts to be at an angle to each other and change the gap.

I never had any issues with the “T” series on buses….type 3, my Saab or any of my water cooled cars with points…mainly I am pretty sure…because they have much better engine compartment ventilation and the distributors stayed noticeably cooler.

Borg Warner/Wells….same parts generally with minor changes

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In most ways these were competent points….or should have been. As you will see…they used stampings and parts made by SMP…but with subtle material and construction changes that made them miserable in high heat environments.

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Good frame to arm bushing, stainless spring but flimsier stamped arm

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I took this picture for a reason. Note the reflection that is to the 5 o’clock of the rivet that holds on the rubbing block. This shows one of the major defects. It’s compressing the rather flexible nylon material used for the rubbing block.
They would get sloppy with heat and were very quickly.
It’s not that nylon is bad…but it has to be formulated for high heat and has to be formulated for rigidity as well. This was not.

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Electrode is exact same diameter as SMP “T” series…. 0.186” (probably because SMP made it) and note the plating line on the lower electrode matching the plating of the tungsten top electrode. Problem is that if you have to file the peak on a lower electrode…you go through the tungsten plating.

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Nothing special or bad about the frame, the wire crimp or the lug…but nothing that screams high quality either.

Note:

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The set on the left is the older BWD/Wells points we just looked at.
On the right is the same basic point set as the wells…but offered in the NAPA Echlin line a few years back and is currently the A520P.

It is using much better rubbing block materials, better conductor, swaging and stiffer spring tension…..but otherwise both units are either made entirely by SMP or components are made for both companies by SMP.


Current NAPA part #’s (all made by SMP)


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This is from the current NAPA catalog. Their basic point set for VW type 4 and others. Note the shape, construction and swaging on the pivot pin. This is Borg Warner made by SMP. These are listed as heavy duty and are $7.65 each

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This is the NAPA/Echlin ECH 313P ….next series up. Note the “P” which denotes a standard replacement set with higher build quality. Note the copper conductor strip against the spring, and they have the “vented” fixed electrode like the blue streak points….so they have a lot of the material improvements of the blue streak….but otherwise Borg warner construction. $7.20 each

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This is the NAPA MPE CS313SB. It is obviously an SMP “T” series….tungsten contacts, copper arm etc. I am not sure how these are placed in the lineup but are listed as their “Mileage plus line” and are $7.20

And not surprisingly….if you Google search for the Standard Motor products catalog….this page comes up:

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Bosch 01011

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This is what I would call a “middle years” set. Probably late 90’s (?)

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It had the white (hard, high temperature nylon…probably something like DuPont Zytel) rubbing block which worked pretty well….or at least it no longer seemed to crack at the “L-joint” like the cheaper shiny black hard plastic rubbing block from like mid to late 90’s (which I suspect was Delrin…totally wrong material choice)….but was still nowhere as good as the 50’s to 80’s phenolic rubbing blocks.

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Also the electrodes had improved (or at least regressed to their former levels of build quality). They are nice and thick and had a diameter of 0.194”…Bosch has always had good electrode composition….but are notably tungsten capped or plated on both electrodes….not solid.

And the other issue….many of the Bosch points of this era were coming with with a damaged fixed electrode. Usually with a peak or dome on them because the spot weld was overheated. It was hit and miss for a while….which is why I searched for other points.

But….the big issue I was having with Bosch points of this era…is that to get the electrodes as generally parallel as they are in this picture….many times just out of the package the arm and fixed electrodes both had to be bent/adjusted as you can see in this picture.

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Just a comparison in wire size between Blue Streak and Bosch 01011.

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Even though spring “thickness” is not always a linear measure of temper or tension force, the spring tension of these points sets is fairly well illustrated by these measurements once you feel a few and run a few. The Bosch 01011 is pretty much the bench mark basic.

The Wells and Borg Warner basic replacement points of yore at .016” spring thickness were almost identical to Bosch (and in actual tension) and probably built right off of blueprints to match what was considered stock.

The Blue Streak points are easily 3X the tension of the rest of this field except for the Borg Warner/Echlin/Standard A520P…which uses the same spring. Great for higher rpm.

Anyway, sorry for the length but just wanted to go through some of the details I see and look for in points quality. Ray


When I used points I used to always get blue point. In my 73 T-3 I never used Bosch because they were not well made by the mid 80's . I did use Napa Echlin and The set Napa sells as their high millage set.

Now that I went back to points I got the same Napa SMP millage plus set which are the exact same set as ACDelco sells . Since Napa is pretty far from me I would have bought their vented contact set which I feel are the best ones yet the millage plus as far better than anything Bosch tosses out there these days and I got a set of their latest offerings wouldn't use those in a lawn mover if they used points. You cannot align the contacts , the frame is so think and to much slop in the pivot.
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spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

heres my two cents .I realy like the old school Mallory .its easy to recurve .you do it with a key. fast and simple . you can recurve it any way you want to . with out spending money to have some run it on there disy machine to recurve it for you . .its built to last .most of my turbo friends love the Mallory and thererunning 10s 1/4 mile .I have run them to 8,000 rpm not one miss .I still have one . if you don't like to run points you can go to summit racing and buy a kit to run no points part number MI- 141 C that's what I like for racing and street spencerfvee
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