Whining noise when accelerating in 3rd and 4th gear

[joshtjeerdsma]

Just finished up a big trip with my 86 syncro and by the end of the trip there was a fairly loud whining when accelerating in 3rd and 4th gear. It is only noticeable when on the throttle and it almost seems to be coming from the shifter. The gearbox has always had trouble going into 1st gear unless completely stopped, but this noise is new. The Van has a subaru 2.5 and has always had swepco fluid in it since ive owned it. Im sure it is bad and I will need a gearbox rebuild, just thought I would get some advice. Do I need to stop driving it? Thanks
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85 auto westy w/ EJ22 (sold)
86 syncro westy w/EJ25

[newfisher]

What does the drain plug magnet and fluid condition look like? Sounds like 2 problems....shift shaft bushings/alignment and internal bearing noise?

[joshtjeerdsma]

I will drain the fluid. I was hoping to avoid draining it if at all possible as the fluid only has a few thousand miles on it and swepco if so expensive. But that would be the best way to diagnose. Thanks
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85 auto westy w/ EJ22 (sold)
86 syncro westy w/EJ25

[MidwestDrifter]

[gears]

Possibly the mainshaft ball bearing on the way out ..
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[0to60in6min]

try to move the shifter left and right and hold it there when you hear the noise. If the noise goes away or get louder then it's from the shifting mechanism ... from the front at the shifter to the rear at the gear box... you may only need to lube and adjust.

[Sodo]

This is a perfect (and understandable) example of how using expensive trans fluid can decrease longevity, and COST money. Guy doesn't want to dump $80 of specialty oil, but contamination in the oil is costing $80 every week in extra damage. So you get 5%, 10% (what % is it?) better lubrication than $15 FLAPS oil (when the Swepco was new) but 5,000 miles later the Swepco has metal fines in it and damages your parts exactly the same as metal-contaminated $15 oil would. Except that the $15 oil could be dumped (and renewed) at the drop of a hat. At this point you'da been ahead with FLAPS oil.

It's a conundrum for sure. I kinda got "the willies" putting FLAPS oil in my trans. And felt great comfort putting Swepco in. But now, knowing that oil can only add 5-10% better load carrying capability. The big Subaru increased the load almost 100%. I'm not so sure that's valid comfort because the load carrying increased only while the oil was clean. Once it's got any metal in it (any sparkly irridescence) all bets are off. Your oil is a grinding paste whether it's specialty oil or FLAPS.

I suspect this happens a LOT. If you look at your fluid the first time it sounds "funny",,,,, your very expensive OEM and NLA (no longer available) parts are in better condition for the next rebuild. But since you aren't really SURE it's worth dumping $80 of specialty gear oil, you tend to run the contaminated specialty oil longer, actually damaging the parts that $80 oil was supposed to prolong.

The truth is, you CAN put ALL of the $80 gear oil RIGHT BACK IN, and you will be at exactly the same place as if you never checked your oil. Except WITH KNOWLEDGE of what's in there.

If you want a significant improvent, you can "settle" the oil for awhile, and put only the clean part back in, add a little fresh Swepco to top it off. And now you are in a better place for the coming miles, obviously. The more days you have to "settle" it, the better. 1 week will have significant funk in the bottom (that you will discard (and inspect too)). 2 weeks is a little better, etc.

Clean very well around the drain plug first. Wirebrush, then wash with carb cleaner or some petroleum solvent. Brush/scrub/pressurewash a larger area around the whole area, just so you don't knock dirt into your collection method.

You want a CLEAN container. I like a white jug so you can SEE inside. Or a clear glass bottle (appx 1 gallon). Best is a funnel directly into the jug, to minimize opportunity for "other dirt" to enter.

Use aluminum foil if you need to direct the flow away from 'parts'.

Get the transaxle good and hot (driving fast, uphill) then park the van with nose up at least 9 inches, 12 inches is better. This part is very difficult for many folks, but it's the best way. If you drain it flat, there will be a bunch of oil remaining in the forward section of the trans (beneath 3rd/4th gear). I think you want to try to get this stuff out of the forward section (also to LOOK at it). Nose up makes it even harder to get underneath the van, but a very important step. And to use a funnel for catchment requires the rear of the van high too (=difficult).

This is a pretty big process to do it best. All the steps mentioned is more difficulty than most folks will agree to. Most won't do the FIRST step much less all the rest. Of course you can pick & choose the steps, depending on howmuch a $3-5,000 Syncro trans rebuild bothers you. And if you KNOW who can be counted on for a good rebuild.

If you have a Smallcar bellhousing, there is a significant "fly in the ointment". The Smallcar bellhousing drain hole is 1/2" above the tranny floor. Consequently if your big Subaru engine is generating more metal fines in your trans fluid, you will never be able to drain that last ~8 ounces (?) of heavy metal sludge. This can be very disappointing, and you may have to think of other methods to get those dangerous particles out. Perhaps a double flush. Anyone who has a bellhousing off should fix this problem. Smallcar could have done it in 5 minutes to all the bellhousings, but here we are....;. Here's a forum post describing this drainhole error.. Here's a pic showing how to correct it (before installing the bellhousing). Most folks expect their transaxle to run another 100,000 miles, at time of bellhousing installation, thus the problem ____ is not on their radar. It should be. If getting a conversion you should demand your installer take the few minutes to correct this problem.

Well..... Big engines, small transaxle, crap rebuilds, heavy throttle, no gear oil inspection regimen, NLA parts, gear oil contamination.... now we have to pay the piper. Some of these issues can be dealt with better than others. One of them is the cheapest, and that's gear oil inspection.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Sodo]

The above process is for the enthusiast. You can count, on your balls, the number of vanagon owners who would do that, perhaps with headroom remaining. Most folks (prob 99%) would never do any of this, but just take their lumps (up to $5,000) at rebuild time.

A feasible BASIC magnet inspection plan: I have never done this but a friend said it can be done. You will lose a little oil, I don't know how much. It's wise to catch this lost oil so you can inspect it too. Look at the oil in the sunlight, you are looking for sparkly metal glitter. If there's any (PERIOD ) your oil needs to be changed. Or at least refined.

Rear wheels up on ramps, and trans is COLD, so the oil is thick and doesn't drain fast.
Remove the transaxle filler plug and have it ready to plug the drain hole.
Take out the drainplug and stick your thumb in the hole.
Then put the filler bung in the hole a few turns.
Be careful with the afro on the drainplug magnet, you will want to inspect it, maybe post pics. You can wash the hairdo with gasoline by carefully swishing it.

Of course when done inspecting the drain magnet, you do the quick switch and put it back in the hole. and the Filler bung back in its hole too.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[joshtjeerdsma]

I used an RJES bellhousing. I bought the van without an engine, so I dont know the history of the gearbox before the subaru. I do know this noise just started on my most recent trip. The noise resonates from the shifter, but also gets quite loud when you roll the windows down.
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85 auto westy w/ EJ22 (sold)
86 syncro westy w/EJ25

[MidwestDrifter]

[WestyBob]

[dobryan]

You likely could drive it around town for quite a while but one long highway road trip may pack it in. YMMV.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[MR GAS]

You should stop driving it. Sounds like the main shaft bearing is going bad. More driving will only damage more parts. More metal in the (unicorn blood) will go thru other parts causing more damage.
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Transaxles Rebuilt, Repaired and Re Geared 25 years. www.MRGASRebuilds.com

[Gnarlodious]

Main shaft bearing. If its any consolation, I drove mine for some 40,000 miles that way and the whining got worse and worse.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[joshtjeerdsma]

Heres the drain plug:

Looks bad. I couldnt really look through the oil very well as the swepco is so thick. I believe it had a bit of a metallic tint, but it was hard to tell. There were no chunks of metal in the oil though. Looks like my summer of camping is off until I can get it rebuilt.
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85 auto westy w/ EJ22 (sold)
86 syncro westy w/EJ25

[IdahoDoug]

Swish that bad boy around in a shallow container of gasoline and see what all you have there. Decant off the clear gasoline gently and see what's laying in the bottom. I think it looks bad as well - especially for recent gear oil change. But if there's a bit of something hiding in there, a corner of a gear tip, etc it can tell the experts here volumes.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Sodo]

When you swish it around in the gasoline you will see it picking up steel and dropping steel too. That magnet is maxed. Meaning there is MUCH more metal in the gear oil that the magnet cannot catch and hold. Sorry - BIG problems inside.

Probably bearings. Wise to stop driving it as you are ruining parts that could possibly be re-used. Some parts are NO Longer Available. Others have been rising in prices. I heard 2nd gear jumped from $56 to $250+ in the last month. In my trans, I needed all four new gears (1,2,3,4) and both shafts too. I'm certain that running with contaminated oil was a significant contributor. Expensive oil does NOTHING once it's contaminated with metal. Some think that high end oil can "handle" contamination, this is about as WRONG as you can possibly get. It's like thinking "my tire's rubbing on my fender, good thing I bought the best tires money can buy"

The worst oil you can get, while clean,,,, is better than the best oil with metal fines in it. And when you over-engine your transaxle, at SOME MILES it will have metal fines in it. WHEN?, is the KEY question & nobody has that answer. You have to LOOK at your oil. And report your findings on TheSamba (hopefully).

The human eye can see to about 6 microns (FWIW). I have observed oil that I CANNOT see sparklies in it, BUT when waving a magnet near the surface, I can see a halo near the magnet (in the oil). That's STEEL !

This is one of the reasons I think folks should start changing their gear oil kinda like engine oil. Or inspecting. Vanagon Science needs a procedure developed for big-engine owners to inspect (high value) transaxle oil for metal fines. These trannies cost more to rebuild than the engine, no longer operate "out of sight,out of mind". It's kinda silly when you think about it - why does gear oil in this expensive component loaded WAY beyond it's design criteria, merit so little attention? Some fellas are adamant that it's a set it and forget it item. Crazy huh? There is a 'custom' of doting on engine oil (brands, types) but "ignore the condition of your transaxle oil" is pretty pervasive. How this OMISSION made it past the thought-process when putting big engines on small trannies, is puzzling.

Plus all the big engine fellas have eaten up all the replacement parts and the good used parts. I think an transaxle running something like 90HP should be OK with 30,000 mile oil changes (VW says "lifetime oil" or 90,000 mi). VW has a far different intention for their cars at the end of a satisfactory lifetime, than the VW enthusiast. VW specifies an interval for "lifetime" by their definition. VW wants it GONE, and the enthusiast wants it forever.

Anyone over-engining their transaxle needs to ADD an oil inspection regimen. It needs to be a line-item in their periodic maintenance checklist.

I think it's changing, slowly, as folks get hit with $5,000 transaxle rebuilds. Some have gone overboard (me) spurred on by my flaming checkbook and now out of interest/curiosity in the subject. I hope this soapboxing produces something useful to Vanagon Science.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Terry Kay]

Drive it till the trans blows up.

Then you'll know exactly what was wrong with it when you have it repaired, and at 4 times the price.

Boy, if a rear end or trans starts howlubg here, it gets parked & torn apart.
I don't have to ask anyone, I know good & well something is wrong.
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T.K.

[IdahoDoug]

Sodo,

Your last two posts on tranny oil are spot on. I think too much is made of splitting hairs on the quality of various oils on shelves when they are new and clean. If your tranny could speak, it would tell you the only thing that matters is what level of wear particles are in the oil.

As you state, clean cheap oil that is 5 years old trumps 3 month old "boy racer" oil that is carrying wear particles through the bits!! Add greater horsepower than the tranny was designed to handle when new, and you can add several orders of magnitude to the truth of that.

Doug
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader