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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| chase4food wrote: |
| ... and he immediately acknowledged with hand gesture before he turned his head and looked. ... |
I've seen that same scenario in SoCal traffic. I thought it was going to be another road rage incident. 
Aloha
tp |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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the bottom line is louder horn(s) can be installed. a relay will often allow more current to flow to a given horn and preserve horn button contacts.
the original poster may be happy with the stock horn but his horn may be suffering from wear and tear, or poor ele trical connections and is thus not as loud as it should be.
a soft sounding horn some may like, but a loud horn is best for safety, it should be meant to be heard above background noise, and get ones atentuon immediatly. a loud horn may prevent an accident, save a life.
air horns can be very loud but if you dont have a pressure tank and only depend on a compressor to power them, there can be a delay in them sounding as the compressor takes time to generate the blast of air. it is often less than a second, but at high speed a second can count.
a wimpy horn may not be heard by people with hearing disabilities, heard in a closed up car full of scraming kids, or loud radio, or a pedestrian with a headset.
I suggest if someone wants a soft friendly horn that they invest in a second horn for such pleasantries, retaining a loud horn for warning purposes.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Colorjazz
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2016
Posts: 11
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
the bottom line is louder horn(s) can be installed. a relay will often allow more current to flow to a given horn and preserve horn button contacts.
the original poster may be happy with the stock horn but his horn may be suffering from wear and tear, or poor ele trical connections and is thus not as loud as it should be.
a soft sounding horn some may like, but a loud horn is best for safety, it should be meant to be heard above background noise, and get ones atentuon immediatly. a loud horn may prevent an accident, save a life.
air horns can be very loud but if you dont have a pressure tank and only depend on a compressor to power them, there can be a delay in them sounding as the compressor takes time to generate the blast of air. it is often less than a second, but at high speed a second can count.
a wimpy horn may not be heard by people with hearing disabilities, heard in a closed up car full of scraming kids, or loud radio, or a pedestrian with a headset.
I suggest if someone wants a soft friendly horn that they invest in a second horn for such pleasantries, retaining a loud horn for warning purposes. |
Thanks this is what I was looking for... I will install a relay and get a louder horn... this weekend!
Thanks to all! |
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Michael4104
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2014
Posts: 340
Location: Livermore, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| ragnarhairybreeks wrote: |
The big story summarized, the lede was hidden in my previous post 
Vanagon has relay in the dual horn set up.
No relay in single horn set up.
Alistair |
That's interesting Alistair, my 85 has a relay and had only one horn. It now has the horns from the engine doner car (Jetta) and they have a great sound.
_________________
1990 Wolfsburg Carat with new poptop.
1985 Westy now sporting a 1995 Jetta ABA 2.0L. Sold |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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A horn is necessary to pass inspection. Thats it. Replace as cheaply as you can.
You don't need a horn when you get cut off. The driving incident is already over. Save rage for the golf course.
_________________
.ssS! |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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I needed a loud horn today when I was stuck in fast moving traffic behind a fuel truck and had a tahoe on my left and a tow truck trying to merge into me. My extra loud horn saved my car from being smashed.
Last edited by syncrodoka on Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
A horn is necessary to pass inspection. Thats it. Replace as cheaply as you can.
You don't need a horn when you get cut off. The driving incident is already over. Save rage for the golf course. |
some folks need it to express rage at the handicap folks evidently.
yes you can replace it cheaply, but louder is better I say, dont skimp on volume. where i live we have no inspection law excpet for the smog nazis.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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ragnarhairybreeks
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 1890
Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| Michael4104 wrote: |
| ragnarhairybreeks wrote: |
The big story summarized, the lede was hidden in my previous post
Vanagon has relay in the dual horn set up.
No relay in single horn set up.
Alistair |
That's interesting Alistair, my 85 has a relay and had only one horn. It now has the horns from the engine doner car (Jetta) and they have a great sound. |
Well that's what you get for making blanket statements, someone comes along and points out the exception.
I thought I was right only from looking at the German wiring diagrams and comparing to the English language diagrams in Bentley. I posted the German diagram in the message before my blanket statement. Maybe you could compare what you have with that. Or then again maybe we could just get on with life
Cheers
Alistair
Ps I don't mean my message to sound sarcastic, often they come across that way but it's not meant
_________________
'86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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Wasserboxer1
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2014
Posts: 19
Location: Costa Rica
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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I just replace for two Bosh in the same place were us to be the original...
Sound pretty strong ... |
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IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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Chase4food,
Thanks for the link to the horn ring. Didn't know anyone was making that.
So, my problem was as someone described above where the springy contact tab ground off at an angle, then got sharp as a razor and one day when I was turning, I felt resistance and then a pop. Later looked and it appeared the tab dug into the copper ring and bent itself. I managed to carefully bend it back into shape, dull the edge and made a mental note to find a way to fix it back to original, but never did. I have a feeling they are all slowly doing the same thing if others have seen this.
So the ring on mine was fine, it was indeed that copper-looking springy part. It's heat/plastic welded into the steering wheel if I recall, or perhaps into a hub thing. I seem to recall looking up the part and being pissed it was $70 or something.
So, was wondering if anyone's figured a fix since we'll all be doing it some day.
Doug
PS - missed the action above that was deleted - what happened?
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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jimf909 
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7477
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
A horn is necessary to pass inspection. Thats it. Replace as cheaply as you can.
You don't need a horn when you get cut off. The driving incident is already over. Save rage for the golf course. |
Interesting.
A horn serves a single purpose: alert someone when they're about to hit you. It should be loud as hell to help all parties continue with the adventure of the day.
I have high db horns on my motorcycles and van and I'm fortunate to only have needed to use it for safety purposes a few times in the last several years (once, a driver fell asleep driving on the West Seattle bridge and hit me despite the horn blast).
A very loud horn:
http://www.amazon.com/Stebel-Nautilus-Universal-Motorcycles-Scooters/dp/B00CMX20H4
Horns should be loud, engine exhaust should be quiet.
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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JustsomeKentuck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2016
Posts: 69
Location: Louisville KY, y'all!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| jimf909 wrote: |
A horn serves a single purpose: alert someone when they're about to hit you. It should be loud as hell to help all parties continue with the adventure of the day.
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This.
As a professional driver (that is, a person who is paid to drive) I have been required to take the Smith Driving System training...the same training UPS requires all delivery truck drivers to take.
In the training it is stated "better to honk and be seen than to not honk and risk an accident". Drivers are taught to use the horn as an alert to another driver. Since you cannot control the actions of other drivers, you can at least make sure they are aware of you. |
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JustsomeKentuck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2016
Posts: 69
Location: Louisville KY, y'all!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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I have no understanding of electrical systems or diagrams. Would someone link or explain the "relay" and what it does?
I figure it doesn't delay the sound when the button is pressed 
So what does it do?
Thanks! |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| JustsomeKentuck wrote: |
I have no understanding of electrical systems or diagrams. Would someone link or explain the "relay" and what it does?
I figure it doesn't delay the sound when the button is pressed
So what does it do?
Thanks! |
The relay provides an alternate electrical path to the horn. This makes the path to the horn have less resistance than the OG path. The relay is a switch for the better path and the switch is activated by the OG circuit. The OG circuit causes the coil to become magnetic and that attracts and closes the better path to the horn. The horn gets more power and the OG switch gets less wear from large loads.
MODERATOR NOTE: this wiring diagram is not for VW horns!
You cannot follow this and have it work!
Aloha
tp |
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JustsomeKentuck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2016
Posts: 69
Location: Louisville KY, y'all!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| Tom Powell wrote: |
| JustsomeKentuck wrote: |
I have no understanding of electrical systems or diagrams. Would someone link or explain the "relay" and what it does?
I figure it doesn't delay the sound when the button is pressed
So what does it do?
Thanks! |
The relay provides an alternate electrical path to the horn. This makes the path to the horn have less resistance than the OG path. The relay is a switch for the better path and the switch is activated by the OG circuit. The OG circuit causes the coil to become magnetic and that attracts and closes the better path to the horn. The horn gets more power and the OG switch gets less wear from large loads.
MODERATOR NOTE: this wiring diagram is not for VW horns!
You cannot follow this and have it work!
Aloha
tp |
Thanks. That kinda helps. |
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T3 Pilot
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1507
Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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Lots of posts about upgrading the horns.......
The '86 and up Vans with the upgraded fuse/relay panel are designed to accept a relay in position 6. Wiring connects to the back of the panel at plug L
I use this awesome diagram.......
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/dual_horns_wiring_diagram.gif
(Thanks Haywood)
Love those coloured wires!
_________________
1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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chojinchef
Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2011
Posts: 1539
Location: Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
On a recent trip to the U-Pull boneyard, I pulled a few of my favorite horns at $2 apiece. Find 70s-80s Cadillacs. They are beautifully tuned and very loud. They actually sound reminiscent of a yacht horn for elegance and I think that was intentional.
I have the Hella Supertones on a couple cars and the note is nothing special but durability has been good at 250,000 miles so far.
Doug |
To me, nothing sounds better than the earlier A,C,D,F Cadillac Fleetwood 4 note horns, but I too opted for the hella super tones in the Thingamajigger.
_________________
Its a mistress; an expensive, whiney, needy bitch of a mistress. She is a chunky, dirty girl with bad skin, little motivation and yet she always makes me smile. She sure has been around before shacking up with me. She has a direct line to my wallet, plays with my emotions, is consistantly jovial yet with a sarcastic and sardonic side, is consistant in her inconsistancy, and every once in a while gives me a great ride and a fantastic memory. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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Horn replacement can be easy but I suffer from PHCGS .......poor horn contact ground syndrome.
I would push the horn pad and get an anemic buzz and if I held it, maybe a feeble honk. The horns had been replaced with some Italian horns at some point and they were rusty ugly!! Plus,mthey were mounted with a wood screw designed for door hinges!
I purchased two new Wolo horns.
I installed them and wired them as VW had it wired and guess what? A feeble buzz!
Bad grounds! Darn VW grounds!
I tried tracing the horn ground wire and fixing the root of the problem..... But honestly? I Gave up as it vanished into the lower steering tube and goes to God only knows where? Bentley says the steering rack? I Didn't see it there.
So...... I tried a relay. You know, mask the problem instead of fixing it? (Something I Rarely do!)
I wired it in quick and sloppy as a test...... And I had horns!
Sadly, as I was diagnosing and figuring out how to wire in my relay, I Had jumpered the horn contacts to be always on to complete the ground path and I unplugged one horn.
Did you know that a horn that doesn't honk because of a bad ground gets scalding hot and emits a horrible burning odor? 
So..... I've purchased three (3) new horns instead of just two. 🤑
Now I need to figure out a way to weatherproof my horn relay ...... 🤔
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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| Tom Powell wrote: |
| JustsomeKentuck wrote: |
I have no understanding of electrical systems or diagrams. Would someone link or explain the "relay" and what it does?
I figure it doesn't delay the sound when the button is pressed
So what does it do?
Thanks! |
The relay provides an alternate electrical path to the horn. This makes the path to the horn have less resistance than the OG path. The relay is a switch for the better path and the switch is activated by the OG circuit. The OG circuit causes the coil to become magnetic and that attracts and closes the better path to the horn. The horn gets more power and the OG switch gets less wear from large loads.
Aloha
tp |
Please take note, this relay diagram I quoted above ^^^^^ is NOT correct for VW horn application.
This drawing shows the hot +12v side as being switched, IT IS NOT SO FOR THE HORN.
On the horn the -12v side is switched.
I'll make a quick drawing of the proper wiring for the relay.
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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While not a fancy drawing, when adding a relay to your horn system you need to think "backwards".
In most electric wiring of any voltage you are disconnecting the plus (+) hot power source.
Not here.......
You Are switching the ground, not the +12v line.
Pushing the horn button and releasing it makes and breaks ground to the horn.
The problem is that the horn ground has become compromised and can no longer sound the horn but rather produces a feeble vibration.
The problem lies with the horn contact system in the steering wheel or more likely with the ground system at the front steering gear box.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=660990
You need to rewire your horns, as they are wired they have a constant +12 volts to them and the horn button provides the ground path, a long laborious path!
I wired my horns to ground at the horn mount.
I wired the fused factory +12v into a common relay.
Now when you push the horn button, you activate the relay coil which closes the contact points which in turn allows +12v to surge immediately forward and work the well grounded horn.
Such a good feeling having a horn that works when the need arises!
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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