Conflicting specs on rear springs. Clarify?

[furrylittleotter]

One thread lists green stripe rear coils as carat:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338546&highlight=green+paint+springs
Quote:
"According to the Brick Yard, the springs are as follows:

Front Springs:

Blue=Normal
Brown= Carat, Camper, Ambulance
Green=Increased payload
Yellow=30mm lower than normal
Violet=Syncro

The rear spring colors are as follows.

Yellow=Yellow - Normal and for increased payload or heavy duty shocks
Brown=Ambulance (UK)
Blue=Passenger vans
Green=30mm lower
2X green=Syncro

http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/index.php?option=com_v...p;Itemid=6
"
.


Another thread lists them as camper coils:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124607&highlight=green+paint+springs

Quote: "I do not know what the difference is between Syncro, Westfalia, and Vanagon springs other than paint marks and part numbers. Here are the part numbers and paint marks for rear springs:

251 511 105 yellow paint mark
fits all Vanagons from 5/79 to 7/92
and campers from 5/79 to 6/83

255 511 105 C blue paint mark
fits campers from 7/83 to 7/85 and from 8/87 to 7/92
[not sure what happened to 8/85 to 7/87......]

251 511 105 E green paint mark
fits all Syncro from 2/85 to 7/92

And another quote: "251 511 105 yellow paint mark
fits all Vanagons from 5/79 to 7/92
and campers from 5/79 to 6/83

255 511 105 C blue paint mark
fits campers from 7/83 to 7/85 and from 8/87 to 7/92
[not sure what happened to 8/85 to 7/87......]


Found out what happened...... the 255 C does fit campers
from 7/82 TO 7/92."

-----------------------------



I have seen a few quotes on length but I can not find anything about the spring Rates.

Does anyone know the spring rates by color code? I am interested in both front and rear.


Thanks.

Neil2

[Vanhalla]

I've been looking for something like this.
I've been thinking about using Westy springs on my tintop, my thoughts are it will give me a mild lift and slightly stiffer springs for a more stable ride.
Amazingly I haven't been able to find any information about doing this.
_________________
1991 VW Vanagon GL

https://www.instagram.com/bjornthebus/

Parts wanted/needed - A high top. CLK wheels. A weekender rear cabinet and head banger.

[greebly]

I searched on info on this as well and was able to draw the conclusion that 87 and later vanagons are lower, Carats are lower, and the 85 is touted as having the highest profile. I own a 91 tintop with a 1.8t conversion and heavy tubular bumpers. My ride height was 15 3/4". I acquired a set of 85 rear camper springs ( thanks Aaron ) the 85 rear springs were marked with blue stripes, had a wire diameter of 0.66", and were 10 15/16" long. My 91 tintop springs were marked with two green stripes, had a wire diameter of 0.72", and were 1" shorter at 9 15/16" long. Installing the 85 camper springs raised my ride height to 17".
This thread covers a lot of the information.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=321336&start=160

[furrylittleotter]

I've been frying my brain trying to get definite answers on springs and shocks for the van and from what I can see;
1. no one appears to have any idea what the spring rates are. A few lengths are listed, no rates.
2. Many people have no idea that springs should match the shocks.i would argue they should match the weight as well.
3. Some people believe progressive shocks exist. They do not. Therefore progressive springs socks and springs will constantly be mismatched to some degree.

Here is an interesting article: http://automotivethinker.com/suspension/linear-vs-progressive-rate-springs/
"the downside to progressive springs.

There is a big downside with progressive springs – and that is that they are hard to damper effectively. A linear spring will always have a consistent rate which is easy to match to a damper, but a progressive or dual-rate spring will most likely go out of the effective damping range as it crosses into higher or lower rates. Trying to damper variable rates is actually a problem on all cars because anti-sway bars act as variable rate springs. The problem with sway bars is that their rates are added to the coil springs only when the car is cornering. This is compounded further when variable rate springs are introduced.

Even though this down side exists, don’t be to too afraid of getting a progressive spring systems if your car is street bound. Just be sure to do the proper research on a spring kit to know what to expect after it is installed. Personally, since I have a dedicated fun car, I have installed linear springs because my car is not driven for any purpose other than going fast, and I make do with a harsh ride on the street.

What you should know:

What you should know is that linear springs are going to provide the maximum level of performance for a car on pavement at the cost of a harsh ride. Progressive springs are an attempt to have a smooth ride and good handling at the same time but are not optimal at both. It’s up to you to decide which is going to be best for your application."
------------------
4. Many people are happy with their rear suspension using various springs, blocks, shocks,Air shocks, coilover shocks, air bags, air bag inserts, straps, etc. etc.
5. Many people seem to think adding lifting spacers does not have any effect on the springs.

6. My van has a mid engine so it's geometry is changed. How much does this effect handling, and how useful is information for stock vans for me?

7. Sway bars are in effect an additional spring applying force, now that I have a bigger one up front that changes the spring rate constantly . I'd like one in the rear which will also change spring rate constantly. will shocks need to be selected to account for that?

What does this all mean? Does any of this matter!?!!?

I have no idea but I am interested to learn more.

Well, in my case I am noticing something going on, I suspect it is too much rebound from worn out shocks.

I thought I'd fit the softest springs available to me then some adjustable shocks or bilsteins and see how that works.

Unfortunately, figuring out which are the softest springs is not proving easy to do.

Neil2

[greebly]

[furrylittleotter]

I agree that the Many factors all allow for a certain amount "Tolerance".

While adding shims does not change the springs, I am relatively sure it adds to the load on the spring.

I disagree that one inch is the max shim amount because I personally have been running 1.5 inches on one side and 2.25 inches on the other for 5+ years.

No damage, that includes having svx engine and fully loaded pulling vw kit car cross country, off-roading in baja, etc, etc.

Unfortunately most of these discussions get bogged down into wheel well measurements.

I did notice that thread link you posted included a few spring wire diameters, that's good to know, but with one spring longer, and the other thicker, it is hard to guess at "Rate" differences.

Neil2

[greebly]

I think Christopher (T3) had calculated some spring rates and had posted some info on the stock springs. I guess you could calculate by loading weight until you get an inch of deflection. I can tell you that the 85 springs I put on deflected 1/2" with my 180 lbs son standing on the corner of the bumper. When I get a chance on my next salt run to Lowes for the softener I will calculate a 1" deflection weight.

[greebly]

I just went out and tried 300lbs, it is the most I have handy at this time, I measured 5/8" of deflection Neil. Looks like the 85 rear springs are going to be in the mid 400lbs range. (430-470)

[furrylittleotter]

Thanks for testing the springs. Unfortunately I have no idea what exactly I have learned from that!

What I did do is go out to check my shock travel and lo and behold I has mere 1cm of travel before the shocks are at full extension! How I have been driving line this for 5 years is beyond comprehension!

It never occurred to me to check after lifting the rear with blocks.

I ordered procomp adjustable shocks and will fit limiting straps at some point.

I have 930 axles so overextension is not a factor there.

Still curious about spring rates.

Neil2

[Jon_slider]

[hans j]

I believe the standard 14" rear spring rate is around 460 in/lbs. I think IG-16 had them listed when I checked last. You probably don't want to go much lighter than that though. Maybe last year sometime you asked about springs and I gave you all the links I used to calculate my suspension. Hint: The factory did a pretty good job of sorting the springs, it's the shocks that can be fine tuned for your driving style.
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181

[furrylittleotter]

Thank you. I'm sure vw did their best in the engineering of the van suspension but I have made significant alterations and am interested to learn more, see what can be done.
I'd love to see the specs on which factory springs have which load rates.


If you hadn't heard Seattle roads are notoriously jagged and rough, not fun.

Even neighborhood driving is quite jarring with current setup.

Ordered new hd bilsteins and shock bushings for front and pro comp adjustable For rear.

Also ordered rubber industrial belting to make spring pads to isolate springs with.
Will install and test.
Neil2

[hans j]

You'll want to start with finding out your corner weights. Can't do anything correctly without that info
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181

[furrylittleotter]

[furrylittleotter]

After trying new shocks, carat springs, and new poly rear arm bushings I was still extremely dissatisfied with my rear suspension setup.

It simply wasn't moving.

I wanted to be able to custom select my springs based on rate so I decided to fit 2.5" coilover springs and see what happened.

Here is a photo in place but before paint and without rubber isolators.

No unusual angles. Slight rub on rubber sleeve at stop on top. Seems acceptable.

First I fitted 450lb 10" 2.5" Eibachs.

Still could barely move the van up and down jumping up and down on bumper.

Then I fitted 400# springs and it finally moved.

So far so good more testing to do.

I made the mounts from 1/4" steel plate and steel pipe coupling (conduit) cut in half, welded in.

The extra rubber is 1/2" reinforced belting I custom ordered to help isolate.

I cut it to fit.


The lower mount is angled.

The factory bump stop is covered with a thick rubber sleeve ( 1/4"?)

Fun little project.

Neil2

[Jon_slider]

[furrylittleotter]

I have no idea Jon! I couldn't verify any oem rates so I ventured out on my own.

Did you calculate 39% based in my number?


They don't take into account geometry, so not sure how accurate they are.

I am running mx6 pro comps.

I have it stuck in the back of my head somewhere u can get a nice ride with soft springs and firm shocks.

Wher that info came from is beyond me but it does seem much nicer.

Everyone else seems to want firmer. I don't get it.

It figures I would want the opposite.😊

Neil2

[Jon_slider]

[furrylittleotter]

Yes I am trying to get rid of the extreme harshness in the van.

The road crack roughness you described is unbelievable in the Seattle and surrounding area.
Much worse than CA.


The shocks are adjustable but since the springs weren't moving that didn't help anything.
I'm not sure what the shocks were set at when bouncing.


I have yet to try adjustments on shocks with new springs.i will.

Apparently some shocks have compression adjustment, some have rebound, and a few have both.


Tyre pressure is critical and I will be running as little as practical.


I'm hoping I now have a baseline setup and can begin to tune shock adjustment and tyre pressure


Neil2

[Jon_slider]

I found road seam harshness to be directly related to tire pressure.

fwiw, Ive compared contact patch length on both my rear engine van and my front engine Subaru Outback. In both cases, front contact patch was 1/2 to 1" longer.

Even though the Subaru uses more pressure in front than in back, and the Van is the other way around.

In your case your front is heavier, as with my Outback. My vans have all had higher rear weight than front.

so my suggestion is to start taking contact patch measurements for reference, and try to have more in front, for some understeer. Im not a fan of oversteer, which is what I got when using equal pressure on my Van.

my process in determining my ideal pressures are
1. start with factory specs, at first (they are not the same for front and rear). I do not go lower, but will go up as much as 5 psi over.
2. measure contact patch front and rear (I use pieces of printer paper pushed under the front and back of a tire, and measure the distance between them)
3. If I feel the tires are too soft (excess body roll in turns), I will go higher, but not lower than spec. While still maintaining a slightly larger patch in front, for steering safety.
4. When I reach a point in higher tire pressure that makes road seams uncomfortable for me, I back down a bit to make crossing road seams, and road buttons used as lane dividers, smooth and comfortable without banging.

with your weight distribution I suspect you will want more pressure in front than rear, while still maintaining a slightly longer contact patch in front.

I found that "cold" tire pressure goes up after driving in hot dry climate, but cold pressure stays the same after driving in rain. For these reasons, I sometimes adjust tire pressure downward when driving in hot and dry conditions, to keep a certain degree of comfort.

I find, tire Operating pressure can vary by +5psi over "cold" early morning pressure, after the van sits overnight. Cold here is about 45F. Ambient here can go up to about 80F during the day. After driving on the freeway at 80F ambient, tire pressure can be quite significantly higher than "cold".

the good thing about rain, is it does not raise the cold pressure, so the larger contact patch of cold pressure is preserved. I dont mind higher operating pressure for spirited driving, but I mostly drive conservatively, and tend to use cruise control a lot.

I find I can usually cruise control through turns as much as 10mph over the recommeded (yellow sign), speed. So on a roadway that is marked 55mph, with a curve marked at 45mph, I leave cruise on at 55mph.

Im usually not the type to drive 10mph over the speed limit, my cruise is usually no more than 5mph over the limit.

its all fun to explore. One tool I have not added to my arsenal, is a digital temperature gauge, which could help confirm when the middle of tire is running hotter than the edges. (overinflated). However, I do find I can "feel" with the palm of my hand, when the edges are hotter than the middle (underinflated).

Thanks for sharing your creative efforts, especially including photos.

Happy driving!

ps, some pics of using credit cards to measure contact patch on my Subaru. Counting tread blocks touching also gives relative contact patch size, without needing to measure.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pZyhmYmozfvOuzXv...58-h869-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/chEnw2bwZRa4tcne...14-h910-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sh-KDYXIM4qD7_il...14-h910-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4SQT4EQcp8N8NPV5...14-h910-no

(sorry I cant yet figure out how to post pics from the new google photos system)
_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco