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rrcade Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010 Posts: 735 Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:34 pm Post subject: reaching proper operating temperature |
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How long does it take a idling stock engine to reach proper operating temp on average? Assume all tin/stat/flaps...blah blah blah
Now how long do you think it takes a 2276 with 10.8:1 compression to reach
"proper operating temp" Assume all tin/stat/flaps...
Lets' also say the outside temp is 80 degrees or warmer
Guesstimates or actual test data welcome |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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They'd probably warm up the same. The stock engine would probably get their faster though. _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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Engines are all going to be different I think I did these test "Warm Up Time" below at about 2000 RPM.
A lot is going to depend on how well the flaps close off. My 1800cc Type 1 engine with the Webcam 163 in it in my bus won't warm up unless I get out and drive it at least 65mph a couple of minutes.
This link is to some data I collected from my Stock-ish 1679cc on the bench: Warm Up Time. The oil temp seems to be last to reach operating temp, this 1679 stockish engine's oil temp was getting up to about 180 in about 12 minutes at 2000 rpm no load. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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Depends on what you mean by "proper" operating temp. Do you mean "how warm before I can drive it?" or "how long before it stabilizes?" |
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rrcade Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010 Posts: 735 Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:38 am Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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What I'm trying to convince myself is that for my car that Only sees street and strip in summer, I can ditch the tstat and just set flaps open My thought is with or without stat these engines warm pretty fast and the whole gradual warming to add a hair of longevity ain't as crucial as some insist. I know a lot of big engine builders never use stats This car don't need heat or defrosters and definitely doesn't need any more engine/oil heat. I've got a stat in now and the engine gets hotter than I'd like I don't wanna worry that something ain't opening all the way or binding just so my engine warms up gradually for a whole 5 minutes |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8689 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:05 am Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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I don't run the thermostat on my stock 1600 in my buggy. He only way to get the oil hot is to drive it a few miles. Mine won't get hot by idling. _________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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sled Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 6171
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:25 am Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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rrcade wrote: |
I've got a stat in now and the engine gets hotter than I'd like I don't wanna worry that something ain't opening all the way or binding just so my engine warms up gradually for a whole 5 minutes |
it is not the thermostats fault if your engine gets too hot. its up to the engine assembler (maybe you?) to set the flaps and thermostat correctly so it can do its job.
if you are asking for opinions, then I strongly suggest you leave all the thermostat flaps and t-stat in place. take the time to adjust it correctly and it will give you the performance you're looking for. _________________ drive your split. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:42 am Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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Yep, I have yet to see someone actually admit thier engine did indeed run cooler without the flaps and be able to back it up with numbers. Most proposals like this end in silence and we never hear the results, likely because they weren't positive. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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I don't run a thermostate on my 2275 Ghia. I just tack weld the flaps open and drive it. It never gets driven when it's below 50 outside. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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rrcade Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010 Posts: 735 Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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I can see how the flaps help to direct the air flow properly, and I've also read that they slightly slow the air movement to allow air time to absorb and move the heat(this one sounds a little far fetched). But the whole thing about needing the engine temp to be controlled by flaps so it warms up at proper rate or time is what I'm gonna throw out the window. I'm just locking my flaps open and calling it a day. I mean this engine was used and abused for almost 10 years before I acquired it-running no stat and only open flaps. It wasn't until I got scared into adding the tstat by the German Engineer purists on the Samba that I added one. Hope my engine doesn't implode or melt when I take it back off. I'll report back in 10 years |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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rrcade wrote: |
I'll report back in 10 years |
Please do, although it sounds like you've already tried closing the barn door after the horse has gone so it may not make any difference as to wear.
You must not drive that a whole lot to already get 10 years out of a strip motor.
As for the flaps slowing airflow, it's more of a redistribution, instead of everything bunching up at the outer head end it's spread over the entire barrel area too, air has mass and is effected by centrifical force and changes in flow just like water except thinner, it's denser where it turns a corner or is herded through something, when it passes that restriction it loses density and temperature just like a venturi, and if it's slower moving it allows that heat time to jump on the train so to speak instead of just whizzing by. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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I have never ran a t-stat or flaps since 1984, I have seen them fail closed multiple times tho causing major damage. Guess I must have hit a buss load of Nuns or ran over a box of cute puppies _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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mcmscott wrote: |
I have never ran a t-stat or flaps since 1984 |
Good for you, but unless you can provide real scientifically measured data comparing flaps vs: no flaps your personal experience really doesn't apply here. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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busdaddy wrote: |
mcmscott wrote: |
I have never ran a t-stat or flaps since 1984 |
Good for you, but unless you can provide real scientifically measured data comparing flaps vs: no flaps your personal experience really doesn't apply here. |
I have seen them fail closed and destroy multiple engines, I think that applies very much here. Sorry if I just peed in your oatmeal, but "very real" expierence has seen them cause major damage, and have not seen a single engine melt down due to not having them. So yea, it applies _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3413 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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I had a Tstat fail closed and fried my motor. But if you weld the flaps in the open position, you avoid that problem. They do also provide better air distribution, than leaving them out altogether |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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Given 80' temperatures your not going to need them. It has been said they help cool the heads a lot though. It's making me realize how important it is to be able to measure head temperature on an engine though! Sometimes the cross connect bar falls off one side or the other. If installed properly they don't jam closed though.
I tied this one on with copper wire because those spring thing keepers sometimes fall off when your putting the engine in the car.
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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I have also run many engines without Tstat and flaps. On the Ghia I welded the flap open only because of peer pressure that everybody says you absolutly have to have them. I don't need any documented tests. I have experienced it for myself. A friend was a VW line mechanic back in the 70's and he told me they rebuilt lots of damaged engines because the flaps would rust shut in winter.
I also DO NOT sit around ideling the engine to warm it up. I start it and drive it just like the VW manual says to. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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hmm, so just what is proper operating temperature. |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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Dave, I did the same thing on my new build. I have always been told that the flaps direct the air into proper vains in the heads. _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: reaching proper operating temperature |
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mcmscott wrote: |
busdaddy wrote: |
mcmscott wrote: |
I have never ran a t-stat or flaps since 1984 |
Good for you, but unless you can provide real scientifically measured data comparing flaps vs: no flaps your personal experience really doesn't apply here. |
I have seen them fail closed and destroy multiple engines, I think that applies very much here. Sorry if I just peed in your oatmeal, but "very real" expierence has seen them cause major damage, and have not seen a single engine melt down due to not having them. So yea, it applies |
If I may ask, how did they fail? If all the parts are in place and working, it seems pretty failsaif, no? Or was it one of those "modern" Mexican or Brazillian ones? Just curious, not doubting. Thanks. |
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