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targetinspect Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 91
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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Depends on the motor... A 4.12 R & P and an 84 bus 4th gear works great! |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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SlimJimVinny Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 188 Location: NorCal
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Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I went and picked up a 3.88 FF from the nice folks at bugformance the other day. (Don't tell them I called them nice).
It's currently sitting on that most universal of VW engine stands (a greasy milk crate, origins unknown).
I'm sourcing a new axle tube, and should have it all put back together in a few weeks, depending on external variables (work and girls).
When she's all put back together, I'll shout out my oh-so-scientific gauge-free test results.
Note:
Test results guaranteed uncontaminated by actual measurements.
Of anything. _________________ I know this isn't an English classroom, but seriously people, spellcheck is rad, and even the cool kids use punctation SOMEtimes...
Marilynn 1962 Type I
Evelyn 1971 Type I |
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roanokejim Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2011 Posts: 3 Location: Roanoke VA USA
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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SlimJimVinny wrote: |
So, i got the tranny out of Marilynn (62). 2 questions:
1) I have to take the axles off to turn the tranny in for a core charge. Anyone know a good way to get the wheel bearing off? I know it's a bitch, but any ideers are appreciated.
2) Anyone have an idea how much a taller R&P will actually impact driving? I have a 1641, 110 cam, kadrons, merged header etc, so I know I have enough power. I mean, about how much can I expect to drop freeway rpms at, say, 70mph with stock rear tires? Anyone with a tach who could answer would be great, but I'll take whatcha got
Thanks |
I also thinking and looking for the answer for that drop freeway rpms. I hope it is not that much. |
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tb03830 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2009 Posts: 1045 Location: Leavenworth, KS
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
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So, I am reading all of the Posts and got confused(help). I have stock 1600 cc SP(replacemnt engine) with a stock Swing Axle 64 Tranny. Runs fine but on the highway it is way to high an RPM for my likes. Most highways around here run 65-75 MPH. In town it is fine but...
If I read this post right I need a 4.12 Swing axle for my 64 Vert. To make it easier on milage/RPMs and still functional in town? I spoke to RANCHO (very helpful) and they recommended a 3.88 and have it machined out to 12v for the fly wheel. Any comments?? I am not looking for extreme power just the ability to cruze at speed and get up hills in 4th.
Is there such a thing as a 5th gear Freeway Flyer?? Be nice. _________________ "Sic Vic Pacem, Para bellum - Pray for peace, prepare for war."
1964 Convertible Bug - 1600cc SP engine with a stock H30/31 Carb and SVDA Distributor - Swing Arm Highway Flyer Tranny, Gene Berg's Temperature Dipstick, 2.5" drop spindles, 2" narrowed adjustable front end. Chromed OEM fan tower. |
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Bret Young Samba Member
Joined: August 26, 2006 Posts: 756 Location: Turlock, CA
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:42 am Post subject: |
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If your running a 1600sp definetely stick with the 4.12. The single port will HATE the 3.88. IT will be a dog up hills, and will run hot. The 4.12 will be plenty for that motor. |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject: freeway flyer question |
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If your rear tires are stock height, a 4.12 R&P with stock 67-8 1st through 4th gear stack. If you have a short rear tire under 23 1/2 the 3.88 would be ok with the same gear stack. _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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rkhoward Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2011 Posts: 7
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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I just went through replacing my tranny with a freeway flyer from Rancho - very nice guys and it's a heck of a tranny (from what I could see). Haven't driven it yet because of a snowball of other problems. Just replied to my post about the starter a few minutes ago.
Getting the wheel bearings off the old tranny was a b&*t%h. I ended using the dull end of a pick axe against the sleeve where the shock mount was. Getting both axle sleeves off took the better part of 6 hours - not a fun day.
After doing research I discovered that there's an inside bearing puller. Bugformance may know where to get one - it was too late for me so I didn't do the research. If you get a regular bearing puller it most likely won't work because it isn't long enough to reach the bearing itself because of the VW axles. Muscle and time will do what you need it to do.
As for the snap rings - my rancho tranny came with double snap rings unlike the stock tranny (which had 1).
Harbor Freight has beefed up snap ring pliers that will lock as you squeeze. The only problem I encounters with those is that the lock would keep them from getting the snap ring closed enough to get it out. I bend the side arm of the lock a little and was able to successfully get the snap rings out. The first side took me about 25 mins for both rings - the second side about 10. The snap ring plier set I got had 2 pliers - one for expanding out - the other for squeezing together - it also comes with different angles that can be swapped out with a philips. Cost was $12 or so - friken great investment. I relate getting the snap rings out and in as to playing a mans game of operation. Another help I had was a small flat head screw driver (very thin) that I bent in the shape of a U about 1/2 - great for assisting in getting the snap rings out (didn't help so much for getting them in).
Hope these tidbits give you a little help. I have a 65 and I'm looking forward to trying out the new tranny - I lost 4th gear and reverse about a month ago - I'm just excited to get over 50 mph without wondering if I'm gonna blow a gasket on my engine. Now if the damn thing will just start. If you have any thoughts on why it won't start please respond to my post on Starter makes grinding noise - won't turn over - HELP - look at my last post for all the info. |
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tb03830 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2009 Posts: 1045 Location: Leavenworth, KS
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Teeroy,
Roger I have stock Tires. Educate me. What exactly does R&P stand for and what does it mean. I get the jist but not details.
So If I read this right for my 1600cc SP, I need to ask RANCHO for:
- 4.12
- R&P?
- Stock 67-8, 1st-4th Gear Stack????
rkhoward,
I have installed and replaced trannies before but the gears are messing with my head. I am trying to learn the ratios and such for a fuel efficient, low RPM, Highway driveable ride while still getting good power. Thanks for the heads up on the double clips. Never seen that before but I am use to stock Trannies.
I responded to your "starter makes grinding noise post". Seen your issues alot on mine and others bugs. _________________ "Sic Vic Pacem, Para bellum - Pray for peace, prepare for war."
1964 Convertible Bug - 1600cc SP engine with a stock H30/31 Carb and SVDA Distributor - Swing Arm Highway Flyer Tranny, Gene Berg's Temperature Dipstick, 2.5" drop spindles, 2" narrowed adjustable front end. Chromed OEM fan tower. |
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SlimJimVinny Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 188 Location: NorCal
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:33 am Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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Hey everyone,
I'm back! Well it's been a little over 5 years now, and my 1641 (dual Kads, Engle 110, merged header, hi-rev springs and racing lifters) with my 3.88 R&P are doing quite well.
I actually stumbled across my own Samba thread (the one you're reading now) while searching for something else, so I thought I'd check in.
Most people on this thread said this engine/tranny combo would bog, or run hot, or be underpowered, or be difficult to pass on the freeway etc etc. But I'm here to tell you it's all bunk. This motor/tranny runs so well that I haven't changed a thing in 5 years. I've driven from Sacramento to Tahoe (quite a few hills), to the bay area and all over town in all weather conditions (except snow.) My oil temps run around 180-200F in normal weather and get up to 220F on the hottest of days after running 75 on the freeway for extended periods. The car has plenty of pep, will jump from 60-75 in fourth gear plenty quick, I can run 2nd gear up to 50mph if I feel like stepping on it and overall I'm extremely happy with this combo. I'm certainly looking forward to building a bigger motor soon (because bigger is always better) but if I got stuck with this combo forever I would still be more than happy.
I think this motor/tranny combo is perfect for city and freeway driving and I bet most people who had it would be pretty happy. If you're on the fence about this, well I've had it the last 5 years and I think it's just peachy.
Happy dubbin y'all! _________________ I know this isn't an English classroom, but seriously people, spellcheck is rad, and even the cool kids use punctation SOMEtimes...
Marilynn 1962 Type I
Evelyn 1971 Type I |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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SlimJimVinny wrote: |
I think this motor/tranny combo is perfect for city and freeway driving and I bet most people who had it would be pretty happy. |
Compared to what? You haven't tried a 4.12 yet. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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SlimJimVinny wrote: |
Hey everyone,
I'm back! Well it's been a little over 5 years now, and my 1641 (dual Kads, Engle 110, merged header, hi-rev springs and racing lifters) with my 3.88 R&P are doing quite well.
[snip]
I think this motor/tranny combo is perfect for city and freeway driving and I bet most people who had it would be pretty happy. If you're on the fence about this, well I've had it the last 5 years and I think it's just peachy.
Happy dubbin y'all! |
I've had Bugs with the 4.375 in 36 horse, 40 horse, and 1600 SP. I had Bugs with the 4.125 in both 40 horse and 1600 DP. I had a '79 super beetle convertible with the 3.875.
For the 1600cc motors I would recommend the 3.88 with a 0.93 4th gear. The gear spreads are nice. First is still plenty low for even the heaviest of Bugs. The final drive is 3.60 and the 3 to 4 gear spread is smaller to make it an easier jump when you need it most. It isn't a big enough deal between any of the stock boxes to get me to swap out a good one (about 250rpm at 60 mph), but with a 1600 or larger motor I would always go for the 3.88 and 0.93 4th if I needed to replace my transaxle. (provided I was running near stock size rear tires)
The 40 HP engine does NOT appreciate pulling taller gears at freeway speeds. Even the 4.12 was to much for it (3.67 overall in 4th) and I kept downshifting to third way to often. Funny, a 36 HP engine will pull that kind of gearing in 4th better than a 40 horse (stock split case is 3.63 in 4th.) The 36 horse makes peak torque and power at a lower rpm. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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planenut Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2012 Posts: 334 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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I have a '66 1600DP with a '67 transmission. It performs well, but at 70MPH the engine is turning 3400+. My rear tires are only about 1/2" smaller diameter than stock. So, does this RPM sound correct? Does anyone know where there's a chart that you can compare different trannys with input RPM's? I was thinking the '67 tranny was supposed to drop the RPM down a little at cruise. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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3400rpm @ 70mph is not bad.
I have a custom 5 speed and am only 400rpm (3000rpm) lower at 70mph.
If you're gonna push tall gears you need a engine with more than stock torque or it will fall on its face when first shift into 4th. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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kevlarian Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014 Posts: 636 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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Here is my input into this 'revived' thread...
I purchased my 1958 about 1 year ago. It came with a 'freeway flyer' trans (I was told). I did a TON of research on the combos (3.88, 4.12, 4.37/.82, /.89/.93) and crunched ALL the numbers.
I FINALLY figured out my combo (through the MAGICAL USE of Excel).
I used Glenn's magical chart. Found here:
http://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/tranny_calc.xls
My combo was a 4.37 R&P + .82 4th.
I would rather have a 4.12 R&P, but I guess I'll have to settle for what I have. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:54 am Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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a unwise gear change (or tire diameter change) can really ruin your day, oh ysah it may be great on the flats on the highway, but it will be a dog in the mountains, causing you to down shift and then your traveling slower with a higher engine rpm.
I put bigger tires (about 10% increase) on my vw van, great on the flats but dammit, it was so slow in the mountains (like can anything be slower than a stock VW Bus, yes it can!!!) had to down shift way too much and ended up with higher engine rpms than stock (with higher temps, lower oil pressure (heat related) and worse mileage.
you do not have a lot of margin for error in these cars, they do not have any extra horse power and have a fairly narrow power band, not like we got big honking V8s that put out more torque at idle than the vw does at 3000 rpm.
do your research before making any changes.
I am still trying to drive the treads off the larger tires on my bus so I can replace them with stock, I am too darn much a cheapskate to replace the tires before they are worn out. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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kevlarian Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014 Posts: 636 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: freeway flyer question |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
you do not have a lot of margin for error in these cars, they do not have any extra horse power and have a fairly narrow power band, not like we got big honking V8s that put out more torque at idle than the vw does at 3000 rpm. |
Unless you have invested and upgraded the stock 1200/1300/1500/1600 motor. I have a 1915 that is putting out 100hp/115tq. Stock gearing just makes it get from 0-60 REALLY REALLY fast. And the engine is still screaming just to go SLOWER than the flow of traffic.
If someone has invested in a modification, there should be no reason that a slight increase in gearing and/or tires size shouldn't be considered.
Hot VW's had an article that showed EVEN WITH A STOCK 1600, you could increase HP by 30% and torque by 10% with simple bolt on items in a single afternoon.
I see no reason why (with even those simple mods) you can't increase your tire size or gear ratio. My OG motor was a 25HP Type 1. My gearing was appropriate for a 25HP motor. I now have 400% more HP and 200%+ more Torque. Going up 20% in gear ratios seems paltry in comparison... and yet people still argue over the gear change. My motor has more power at 1000 RPM than the stock at 4000. |
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