(Another) Loss of Power Posting

[davidw99]

This issue has me stymied. A few weeks ago I was coming home from a show and the car's power cut out totally. The engine shut off like the key had been turned off. I checked that I had fuel to the fuel pump and I checked the battery with a meter. It read 12.35 volts. I wiggled some wires at the coil and distributor and the car started. When I got home I checked the coil and it had a wimpy orange spark so I put in a new Bosch Blue. I also check the power to the coil from the switch and it was 12.25 volts. After the new coil was installed the car was running like a champ even for hour long trips. No issues.

Yesterday I was out on the highway and after about 30 minutes the engine cut out again. It happened right at a rest stop and I pulled in. I had fuel to the pump. I tried to start the car but the engine turned over slowly, like the battery was dead or dying (battery is about two years old). I had a bright yellow coil spark. After nearly one hour the car sort of started, idled rough and would cut out if I took my foot off the gas. I had the car towed home. The battery read 12.33 volts when I checked it at home.

So, my car is acting like it the battery is dead but the battery has a full charge (I put a trickle charger on the battery and in the morning it read 12.93 volts - maybe my meter is off or is this a normal reading for a fully charged battery?). I may be wrong but I don't think it is the battery or the alternator. I haven't checked the fuel coming out of the pump (pump is about two years old). I don't think it's a carb issue as I have two fuel filters on the car and the car was running well (and that wouldn't explain the slowly turning starter). I checked the condenser per Muir after the first instance and it checked out OK but the engine was cold at the time. If it is an intermittent condenser issue that only reveals itself when warm I would have missed it. After the first instance I cleaned the trans ground strap connections and the connections at the starter. I haven't cleaned the battery ground strap connection.

Any suggestions?
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.

[zoobyshoe]

[davidw99]

Wires to the starter switch, you mean from the ignition? I'm also presuming that these wires need to be connected to keep the car running?
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.

[gt1953]

Do not rule out the condenser on the distributor. It can go intermittent and cause weird things.
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[zoobyshoe]

[davidw99]

OK. I cleaned the battery ground and replaced the condenser with a NOS unit. I did an autopsy on the condenser I took out and it was in perfect condition. It was also very well made. There were no markings on it so I'm not sure the brand. It seems the condenser was not the problem.

So far since the highway incident, the car has been starting and running fine although I have not had it out for long rides. When it starts it seems to turn over slow but starts within a second or two. Fuel system seems fine and gas tank is vented. Fuel pump is working fine. Must be electrical and, since the car losses all power, it should not be a problem with having no spark at a particular plug. So, some intermittent problem the cuts off power at or to the coil or distributor. The distributor is the original 0 231 170 034 Bosch. Do distributors go bad? How would I check it? I'm stymied. Any ideas?
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.

[zoobyshoe]

Here is your ignition switch:

http://www.jbugs.com/product/111905865K.html

as you can see, it has many connections that might become loose. They might be loose internally, inside the switch as well, making contact sometimes, but cutting out suddenly at others.

If your engine is shutting off suddenly as if the key had been turned off, then it seems plausible the switch your key is used to operate could well be what is failing.

[davidw99]

Thanks,

I'll give this a shot.
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.

[davidw99]

I replaced the switch. Time will tell if this was the problem as the problem was intermittent. However, the old switch did look old with one fairly long crack in the yellowed plastic casing. I took it apart and, although I could find nothing definitely wrong with it (for several reasons: one, because the metal bits came falling out once the plastic pieces were separated and, two, an intermittent problem would be had to find in any event since I really didn't know what I was looking for) I was surprised by the number of very complicated looking and very small parts in it. I can understand how these can fail especially after 40+ years.

The replacement of the switch itself was easy peazy even in 95 degree humid weather. Thank you zoobyshoe for the suggestion. I never would have thought about considering this as a possibility on my own. I didn't even know the part existed at least as a replaceable unit separate from the key part of the ignition switch. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.

[Zylinderkopf]

[davidw99]

Yes it was easy. I did a search on thesamba.com and also found some YouTube videos. This is what I did.

1) Remove horn button and then steering wheel (27mm nut and washer).

2) Remove dash panel under steering column (two bolts).

3) Disconnect the three wiring plugs from the turn signal, washer and ignition switches.

4) Remove the four long brass screws from the turn signal/washer switch unit. Pull towards drivers seat and let hang if the washer hose connections are still connected or put aside.

5) Remove the two larger screws that hold a black cover over the ignition switch. Remove cover.

6) Remove ignition switch by pulling towards driver's seat. Key may have to be in and turned to disengage column lock.

7) Remove electrical portion of ignition by removing the very small set screw from the side of the switch. Remove electrical portion of the switch by pulling out of ignition switch housing.

Installation is the reverse of these steps.

Probably 30 minutes tops. My Super is a '73. I don't know if there were changes from year-to-year.
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.

[Zylinderkopf]

Thanks Dave. Will give this a shot.
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"A lot of people never use their initiative because no one told them to."

[zoobyshoe]

[EVfun]

You may want to check the system voltage some more. A battery on a trickle charger should read at least 13.2 volts, or it is low.

You can take the .xx part of a resting battery voltage and add .1 to roughly determine the state of charge (as a percentage expressed in fractional form.) So you observed a battery around 40% charged.

It is possible you have a charging problem, or a connection or ground issue. If you check the battery in the morning before your first starting attempt it should read at least 12.7 volts. With the engine running at 2000 rpm it should be closer to 14 volts.

Fixing one or more other connection issues may keep the problem at bay. Still, I would try to get the battery to charge and other minor connection issues will be a lot less troublesome.
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[davidw99]

[davidw99]

[zoobyshoe]

Only other thing I can possibly think of is the idle solenoid cut off valve. A friend of mine here started having problems with his. It would stop working intermittently.

Thing is, it doesn't shut the engine off exactly. It will stall if you're idling, but you can keep it going if you catch it in time by stepping on the gas.

[davidw99]

Hi all,

I took a reading of the battery engine off: 12.44 volts. Hydrometer reading shows three cells good, two are 25% and one at 75%. So, does this indicated a bad battery or bad alternator? My guess is a bad battery. And it's only two years old. Of course, I don't know how long it was sitting on the shelf. I'll run the car latter and check the voltage while running.

Update -

Took the car out for a short drive. Battery voltage with car at about 2000 rpm: 13.52. Battery after car was turned off: 12.84. Now I'm confused.

Thoughts?
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.

[vamram]

Nice work on the switch and sounds like your battery is toast. I dont see how the battery could cause the symptoms in your original post. It's more like a secondary unrelated problem. Like finding a leaky wheel cylinder when replacing worn out break shoes.
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[davidw99]

OK. I replaced the alternator. I checked the voltage on my Focus and it read 14.09 when idling. With the old alternator the bug read 13.4x - 13.5x. The bug now reads 14.12 when idling. I'm thinking that the alternator has been acting up intermittently for a while. I'm disappointed that it went after less than 19,000 miles. It was a "new not rebuilt" Bosch. I put in a rebuilt unit from Autozone.
_________________
Dave

'73 Saturn Yellow Sports Bug that has undergone a full pan off restoration. "Herbert IV."

'67 Sedan. "Bellamy." Currently being "refreshed" and recently repainted.