Wiring to coil

[79bugman]

did more tests as follows....

12.31V to wire (red/black) on starter that is connected to ignition when key is in START position

I jumped the starter between the electrical posts and (many sparks) but starter turns and sounds normal.

I'm running out of ideas.....

[David_nc_72std]

[Douglas A]

Make sure your coil wire is good, and plug in tight on both sides, cap and coil.
This just happen to me starting my new engine?
Worth checking.

[zoobyshoe]

79Bugman, I'm assuming from your username your Beetle is a '79?

[ashman40]

From you pics I really cannot make out how you have the internal distributor plate (where the points mount) grounded? It almost looks like you took the original wire and soldered it to the pivot point at the end of the vacuum can arm, then soldered your new wire to the same spot? Or did you just twist the wires together?

From all your descriptions I have two possible issues both are related to voltage not reaching the end of the circuits:

Is there 12.0v (or better) making it to the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid (red/black wire) WHILE you turn the key to START? You may have measured the voltage without the starter load, but try checking the voltage while the starter is drawing current from the battery.

Is there 12.0v (or better) at the ignition coil (+) WHILE the starter is cranking the engine (Obviously you need to get the starter working first). Your previous tests indicated the voltage was dropping too much while the starter was trying to crank. This is either a problem with a weak battery, or with old/dirty wires creating too much resistance. If the voltage appears to be too low, try adding a second (known good) battery using jumper cables. This will supplement the battery and make it appear to be a bigger (more cranking amps) battery. If this gets the starter cranking and the ignition firing then your battery may be old.

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[79bugman]

Yes, this is a 79SB DP 1600CC completly stock with carb (I did not want to mess with FI)

As for the coil wire, I believe it is tight. I have taken on/off a few times and think it is making a good connection.

Ashman, I twisted the 2 wires together (my homemade wire and the original one that was attached in the coil. there is NO solder anywhere because I did not want to take the distributor out and could not get enough heat to melt the solder. I believe the connection is pretty good.

as for the red/black ignition wire test ...

I disconnected it totally from the starter, stuck one end of my voltmeter in the connector, grounded the other end of my voltmeter to the battery and turned the key to "start" position .. got 12.31V.

I think there may be an issue with the starter solenoid but I have NOT been able to do additional tests due to my 2 year old daughter needing constant attention when I get home from work....

I found this troubleshooting website:
http://www.type2.com/bartnik/starter.htm

and will continue to do the solenoid test and report back with results.

Thanks again for all the ideas and guidance.

[sb001]

[79bugman]

OK...so here we go ... test results

BATTERY AT BEGINNING = 12.86V

based on the above link for starter trouble I did this test:
spike the positive lead of your voltmeter into this braided wire and ground the negative lead. turned key to start. When your helper does this, you should hear a clunk and measure 12v with your voltmeter (additionally, the engine should be cranking as this happens). If you do not measure 12v, your solenoid is not activating and is not sending power to the starter motor. I MEASURE 2.69V AND NO CRANKING.

remove the wire from the ignition switch from the solenoid. Take your screwdriver or insulated pliers and short the big post with all the wires to it to the terminal on the solenoid where the ignition switch wire plugged in. IT CRANKED HEALTHLY. I DID THIS 3 TIMES AND ALL 3 TIMES IT CRANKED HEALTHLY. OBVIOUSLY THE SOLENOID IS BAD.

I am going to replace the entire starter including the solenoid and was looking at this one http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BOS-SR15N

on other posts, I saw something about an auto stick starter that does not use the bushing. what are these and does someone have a link

What does everybody think about this starter for my totally stock DP 1600CC manual trans with Solex carb.

I would like to buy a brand new starter and don't want to order the wrong one!!

NOW BACK TO THE SPARK ISSUE ARRRGGGHHHHH

tests as follows...

after the jumping of the starter solenoid the car cranked every time I turned key to start position.

I tested the wire from the ignition to the coil and an getting continuity to the coil with key in start position (my test light lights up)

test 1 -- put everything back the way it was and car attempted to start, but nothing.

Test 2 -- Pulled the #2 spark plug and grounded against bolt on the intake. turned key to start and nothing..no spark.

test 3 -- coil wire off of coil and off the distributor cap (I was holding the coil wire in my hand). I turned key to start and points open/close as the engine attempts to crank.

test 4 -- Rotor in, distributor cap on, Coil wire hooked up and all electrical wires hooked up as previously stated in the earlier posts. I took the coil wire off the distributor and grounded to the distributor body. turned key to start and car cranks but .... NOTHING, NO SPARK FROM COIL!

WTF... I am getting 12V to the coil, car attempts to crank, points open/close and I get no spark.

Any ideas would be great.

Thanks again for everybody that has posted to this

[zoobyshoe]

[zoobyshoe]

Crazy variation in prices, but it's readily available:

http://www.carparts.com/details/Volkswagen/Super_B...oCXwnw_wcB

http://www.jbugs.com/product/171905865.html?Catego...ys-1975-79

http://www.partstrain.com/store/details/Volkswagen...oC1mzw_wcB

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/IDI1/1803...ion+switch

http://www.autozone.com/batteries-starting-and-cha...icle=false

[ashman40]

Agree with zoobyshoe, your starter+solenoid sound like they are working properly when 12v reaches the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid.
You mentioned it now works properly since it cranked by shorting the battery cable to the #50 terminal of the solenoid.
I'd first test that you are getting 12v to the end of the red wire that plugs into the #50 terminal when you turn the key to START. Also, clean up the wire terminals and the male #50 spade the wire slips on to. Maybe the removing and reinstalling the wire made a difference and provided a clean connection.

[zoobyshoe]

[79bugman]

Ok, thank you zobyshoe and ashman for the responses.

I will conduct the test on the coil to see if I am getting 12V when the key is in the start position (as engine cranks) and will report back sometime tomorrow.

I don't have a helper today

Also, thanks for the links for the ignition switch. I will order one tomorrow.

I came to the conclusion based on the "trouble shooting" link here http://www.type2.com/bartnik/starter.htm based on the following test...

Take your screwdriver or insulated pliers and short the big post with all the wires to it to the terminal on the solenoid where the ignition switch wire plugged in which will bypass the ignition switch and send full battery current directly to the solenoid. This should make the solenoid kick in and the engine should crank. (IT DID) If it cranks this way but not when you do the test in the paragraph above, then your solenoid works but it's either sticky or you have a big voltage drop when going through the ignition switch, possibly a dead ignition switch. The preceding parts of this test should have identified a bad ignition switch already, so if you've gotten this far and it works when you short the solenoid directly to battery power, you likely just have an old stick solenoid that needs a lot more current to activate than it's getting from the ignition switch. See below for your options.

I guess I did come to the wrong conclusion.

Thanks again!

[79bugman]

ignition switch just ordered from Jbugs

[zoobyshoe]

[sjbartnik]

[Bugman1970]

" I MEASURE 2.69V AND NO CRANKING. "

Is that number correct?

Check the voltage at the #50 wire under the rear seat while turning the ignition key to the start position. Disconnect the terminal and check the wire coming from the ignition switch. If you're getting 12 volts or more at that point, the problem is not the ignition switch. If you get a low voltage reading at the starter solenoid while turning the ignition key to start position, the problem is between the #50 connector and the solenoid.


Run a jumper directly from the battery to the starter solenoid and see if it cranks. If it does you have a bad wire or connection between the #50 wire under the seat and the starter solenoid.

One other thing. It's possible that your battery has a bad cell. I've seen batteries that will test good at 12.5 volts or so, but they won't deliver enough amps through the system to spin the starter. That's usually an indicator of a bad cell in the battery. You can take the battery to an Advance auto store and they will load test it for you at no charge. Good luck.

Dennis

[79bugman]

OK....was finally able to get back to the car last night and tested the volts at the coil.

13.08V for the battery at the beginning.

I grounded my volt tester directly to the negative side of battery.

I had my helper turn key to "ON" position (lights on speedo come on) and have 12.89V at the wire on the coil.

I had my helper turn the key to"start" position and engine began cranking. Volt meter drops to anywhere between 10.28V and 10.38V with the engine cranking.

I did this test 3 times all with the same results.

I am going to put the ignition switch in sometime this week.

I will keep everybody posted.

if the ignition switch does not fix it, I will check dead cells in battery and go back to square 1.

Thanks again for everybody's help.

[79bugman]

Ok.... so I dont know what to call it so I will call it (the stubborn black thingy that holds the turn signal/wiper/key)

I have the following off/out
- steering wheel
- turn signal switch
- wiper switch
- small allen screw that is in the bottom
- 3 large connectors that attach to the back of this stubborn black thingy

and It wont come out!!!

how do I get this damn thing out, so I can replace the ignition switch

[vamram]

Picutures of black thingy might help...
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