end play

[2Dokas]

I posted this yesterday but it disappeared,

I took my 36hp engine apart not knowing its history and for the fun of it a few years ago, and I am slowly working on putting it back together

I only replaced the cam, everything else looked good,

My end play is 0.0018 which is 10 below the minimum

seems odd to me that using everything the same would end up with something out of limits (28 minimum)

the shims are not flat, each one has a side that has somewhat of a bend(?) so I tried both sides and the end play is the same, I had guessed that the uneven side was against the flywheel as the bearing surface is as wide as the shim.

but the fact that the shims are not flat made me think the end play was not correct the last time it was rebuilt, when ever that was, but the pistons and connecting rods were marked so I know it had been rebuilt,

Is is safe to assume that the end play is the same as it was prior to taking it apart?

I measured the shims, they are 32, 34 and 40 (though the bentley does not show a 40, only a 3.

I am going to have to replace some, but they seem to be unavailable,

so, my question is, could I have done something to change the end play while only changing the cam?

I think I am looking for a couple of 32's to bring me within the minimum,

can I look for 40 hp shims as well? How about 1600?

peter
_________________
87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible

[3foldfolly]

40 hp and 1600 are the same but larger diameter than the 25-36 hp shims. You might try Mika:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1640663

[Snort]

I've seen a lot of dished and worn shims in used motors so consider yours to be unfortunately normal. End play can change as parts wear so as long as your case and crank bearings are still tight then set your end play by the book and ignore whatever it was before. Remember to include a paper flywheel shim in your measurements.

[2Dokas]

awesome, thanks for the tip on the shims and reassurance on the wear.
_________________
87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible

[txoval]

You'll find a similar topic in the Vintage Speed section...

The early Porsche engines used a single thicker shim, which can still be bought and are the same size as our 36hp shims.

I went this route when rebuilding my 36hp as 36hp shims are difficult to find. Take the measurement, calculate what you need and then order the single shim to get you there.

[Snort]

[2Dokas]

Back to this project, gone out of town for a while,

not sure I really grasp the endplay adjustment, was not really clear that the end play would be greater with thicker or thiner shims, but I assumed thinner shims would result in more end play.

So, I installed the flywheel without any shims to measure the end play to be sure I ordered the correct size.

not a good idea from what I can tell, there was no end play when I tightened the nut.

so i took off the flywheel and put the shims back in and I get some movement again, but not as much as before.

I was at 18 and now about 10.

When I push in the flywheel to measure, there is some resistance and it goes into 18 or so and then when I let off the pressure it comes back to 10.

The engine spins fine,

What might I have done?

peter
_________________
87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible

[Snort]

Are you measuring in mm or inches? Either way you should be reporting your numbers as 0.xxx etc. For example, end play in mm should be 0.07mm to 0.12mm according to the manual. If you are measuring in inches then 0.003" to 0.005", is close enough.

If you are having trouble with taking correct measurements and the crank is springing back after pushing on it, you might have something binding in your rod/crank clearances or rod/wrist pin/piston assembly.

[ridehard]

[2Dokas]

I am measuring in inches, sorry, yes, 0.0018 was the original and now I am at 0.0010 with some push back.

the engine is sitting on my work bench,

okay, will start over, again.

next time I'll check the end play before putting on the pistons/heads

going to have to clean up and use that nasty curil gasket material again,

Curil T or Curil K ?

peter
_________________
87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible

[Snort]

Are your measurements with or without a paper flywheel gasket in place? The paper gasket should add about 0.006".

Here's something else I just remembered. One time I had a problem with my crank springing back on me just as you described after everything was assembled. It turned out being a new type of flywheel seal I bought from Wolfsburg West. It had two lips on it that contacted the flywheel instead of the normal one, the one closest to the clutch was rubbing on the radius of the flywheel where the sealing surface runs into the back side of the flywheel. I went back to the normal one-lip seal and problem solved.

[2Dokas]

[2Dokas]

Almost a year gone by and the engine still sits on the bench. My back is getting slightly better so its time to try this again.

I removed the head off one side and it stopped the condition where the end play remained steady, (I was pushing the flywheel in and it would push back).

It seems to be the wrist pins. Years ago when I started this project, they were very difficult to remove, I used a socket and a hard rubber mallet, all 4 of them were this way.

Upon reinstalling them, they needed the same treatment to get them in, I had my son help hold the pistons against the "tapping".

There was a sweet spot where the piston was totally free to move up and down on the wrist pin, but it was small, and if in the wrong position the piston would not drop if I pulled it up.

So, why would they have gotten tiger with age?

and more importably, what should I do? Bore out the wrist pin bearing?

My shims are also very warped and I think part of my problem with varying measurements was that I was putting them on the crank in different orientations.

thanks

peter
_________________
87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible

[Snort]

With some motors the wrist pins push against the keepers and deform the aluminum of the piston. This can be corrected with a light hone or an adjustable reamer. The wrist pin should be a finger-push fit in the piston and rod bushing when assembling. I'm working on a budget rebuild right now trying to put the best of all my used parts into service and I had one piston with a tight pin that I worked on with a bit of 320 grit sandpaper and it took a bit of effort but it was enough to get it working freely again.

[2Dokas]

Ill give that a try, thanks

peter
_________________
87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible

[2Dokas]

[Snort]

It can be hard to tell if the seal is fully seated into the case. But as long as the seal is not crooked and you've driven it home as much as you feel is necessary then you should be good to go. Various case designs, various seal designs, they don't all add up to one perfect way to describe how it should look when it's fully in. Put a smear of grease on the seal where it rubs on the flywheel and you will have done as much as you can.

[60ragtop]

here's what the seal usually looks like when it is fully seated in a 36 HP. They stick out a bit so you should be OK. Hopefully you have a single lip seal and not the double lip like in the pic. (Thanks hazetguy)

_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986

[2Dokas]

Back again, thanks for being so patient with an old guy...

I want your opinion on the seating of this rear seal.

It has 2 small waving areas that you can see from this image, one at about 7 o'clock and the other about 6:45

bad? Redo? Okay?

thanks in advance.

Peter
_________________
87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible

[60ragtop]

yes, redo or it'll leak. and oil the lip when you install it.
_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986