Sand Rail Resurrection Project

[Icy]

Thanks for the advice guys! I finally got the drum off today, and I believe the passenger side brakes are older than the driver's side- based on the amount of rust and the number of cobwebs.

It seems that the shoes had slid and locked up. One was getting to metal on an end (uneven wear), so probably good to replace them anyway.

After trying to break loose the adjuster star gears, I just took the 16lb sledgehammer to it! Piece of cake, and I'm okay with replacing the shoes (they broke off with the hammering), it all looks like it could use a rebuild.

On another note, I wire-brushed the frame, and hit it with some primer (rust-inhibiting), and even though it's brown, having it all one color makes it look much nicer.

I think I'm going to go orange, with some black accents. However, my family is hoping for something less flashy. We shall see...

I'll take some pics of my progress tomorrow, but I'm very excited with all of the progress!

Also, do you think I'll need to buy a new trans mount for the new trans?

Thanks guys- more updates soon!

[Multi69s]

Since you are going from a bus trans to a bug style, yes you will. Personally, I would keep the bus trans, it will make a stock motor do so much more. Also, if you can afford it, and really want to go with the bug trans, you might try and rig up the bus trans so it can be driven. That way if it is good, you can sell it as a working trans, and get a lot more coin for it.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[Icy]

Okay, I've been doing a lot of research, and made a few realizations.

I discovered that the frame has been properly modified to securely hold the 002 trans- using the non- 10 degree mounting method. This has me leaning towards keeping the bus trans, and just biting the bullet on the axles.

The new wheel and master cylinders arrived, and I realized that I forgot to order a reservoir...

As for the axles, apparently you can order the parts but I'm hoping there's a cheaper way- I don't need baja desert-ready racing axles, just hacked up ones to fit.

The brakes seem to be making a scraping noise in one drum- the one with no shoes, which makes me unsure of what the issue is. Hopefully solved in the brake rebuild!

More painting- I hate painting- but it's coming along and won't rust!

I researched seats, and found most of what I need on Moore Parts' website. Might try CL first for better deals.

As for the bus trans- would you guys recommend a 2" drop connector to use the one in the tunnel, or a whole separate box? (For someone with basic welding skills, and a limited budget!)

I'll post pics tomorrow, but the clutch and flywheel on the engines don't look exactly the same, might be an issue... Are bus and bug clutches compatible/ the same?

Thanks guys! More updates soon!

[dustymojave]

The brake with no shoes scraping is probably the drum rubbing against the backing plate. You may need to bend the backing plate a little. Then put the shoes and such on there...

Personally I really don't like the shift adapter deal. It's Mickey Mouse. I don't like the big hole in the sheet metal for the nose of the 002 to stick through whether you opt for the adapter or the shift box on top of the tunnel. Especially if the car is going to get driven on the road.

Beware the seat mounts at Moore. My son bought a set of those for his Bug against my advice. He regretted it. It took a lot of fabricating to make them work.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[Multi69s]

Dusty,

I agree with you on the shift adapter, but what do you dislike about mounting a shift box. After all, virtually all sand rails have to go that route. Is it because of the loss of the E brake?
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[dustymojave]

[dustymojave]

So to add to this discussion about connecting the shifter linkage...

Because this car is a pan rail, not a Baja Bug or Class 11 style full body sedan, the concern about having a big hole above the tunnel in the back means nothing. So it would be fine to weld a shift box like used in tube frame buggies on top of the tunnel. But still, the adapter to the shift shaft inside the tunnel is not good.

Since Icy isn't real familiar with this stuff, Ill throw out a little extra info that some of you others probably already know.

To mount a shifter above the tunnel, there are pre-fabricated boxes made for putting a VW shifter in a tube frame rail.

http://www.appletreeauto.com/SHIFTER-MOUNT-BOX-5503/

While you're at it, mock the shifter up to see where you want it to be when you're driving. If you're gonna weld a bracket on the tunnel the shifter doesn't have to be where the factory put it. I always found the factory location kinda far forward for me.

Then you use a stock shifter and the shaft that's in the car now. Get a new shift shaft bushing: either a stock replacement which will slip into the hole in the box,

http://www.appletreeauto.com/SHIFTER-BUSHING-TYPE-1-111-701-259A/

With the lock ring

http://www.appletreeauto.com/SHIFTER-BUSHING-LOCK-RING/

or use a Bugpack/EMPI bolt-on urethane bushing.

http://www.appletreeauto.com/URETHANE-SHIFT-BUSHING-5506/

The stock shift shaft should have some slight bends in it to clear things inside the tunnel like the parking brake mechanism. I didn't have a big problem gently removing the bends in mine when I built my rail back in the 70s and you shouldn't have a lot of trouble either. But if it seems a problem, you can buy a brand new straight shaft:

http://www.appletreeauto.com/SHIFT-SHAFT-UNIVERSAL-AC711130/

Then to connect that to the shaft sticking out of the front of the trans:

http://www.appletreeauto.com/URETHANE-SHIFT-COUPLER-LATE/

or

http://chircoestore.com/heavy-duty-urethane-shift-...l?___SID=U

You MAY need to cut off the back end of the shaft and replace it with an adjustable end:

http://chircoestore.com/shift-rod-adjuster-kit-for-vw-bugs-beetles.html

Note that the Appletree site showed me that adjuster once, but would not show it to me again no matter what I tried. Chirco's site gave me similar trouble, but I found it eventually.

Then I'll let you pick the shift lever you desire. I'm happy with a stock 65 Bug shifter with a quick shift adapter. Same setup in my Baja and my Hi Jumper. The quick shifter only works with the stock shifters, but most aftermarket shifters make the same leverage change as the quickshifter does, but they already have it built-in. Note that whatever shifter you put in, it will probably need the reverse lockout plate Appletree and Chirco show with their stock levers or sold separately.

There are probably LOTS of these shifter parts available through the classifieds or by asking in this thread.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[dustymojave]

OK, now Icy says he has received a new dual circuit master cylinder and he's asked me about how to hook it up for rear brakes only.

[Icy]

Thanks dustymojave for all of the brake advice! I got a little sidetracked with the project, but I've made some progress!

I painted the frame and suspension, except for the rear crash bars. I also dropped in the Ghia engine and trans (after removing the old exhaust and heater things), and did some general cleaning and power washing. Ordered a seat, and wiring harness for it, too! Also found a shifter, and shift rod coupler. The other day, I put the plug wires back on, reconnected the throttle cable, and started to sort the wiring.

I've been out of town, and threads suck without pics, so here are a few! I'll upload more soon...

I'm afraid I got a little impatient, and wanted to see it run- hence my skipping brake repairs (got the parts, though!). So I picked up a battery, and I'm focusing on reconnecting all of the lines, and wires.

I opened up the center console (didn't know it did that!), and found a fuse block, and a mess of wires. Also, some thankfully vacant wasp nests.

I laid out the wiring from the console, and made a little diagram:

The console has an ignition switch (3-pos?), power point/cigarette-lighter, three switches, a tach, a speedometer, an oil pressure guage, and an amp meter.

I'm trying to trace the wires to their sources, using some diagrams that I've found here, but this is my first experience with 12V wiring.

So far, I have three connections on the engine, the fuel pump connector, the hookups on the coil, and for the starter.

I guess I'm just thinking about how much of the new wiring harness I'll need. There seems to be a fair amount already here- but it needs some patching and reconnecting. I'd like to hook up enough so that it will run, and then begin to clean it up.

I'll have more specific questions once I've started to identify the different leads, but any tips or advice is appreciated as always! Thanks!

[Multi69s]

Couple of questions, How is the wiring run front to back? Are there holes drilled in the frame tubes and the wiring run through the frame? Or is there a channel for all the wires to run in? Personally I have never been a fan of running the wires through the frame. Even if there are grommets, they can still wear and you don't know what is happening inside the tubing. I prefer to run my wires inside of a clear rubber tube, then attach the tube to the frame. In your case, I would strongly suggest that you wire from scratch.

What I see is that you do not have a matching set of sending units to gauges. For example, you have an oil pressure gauge, but the sending unit is for an idiot light, but I don't see an idiot light on the instrument panel. I would start with the basics. From the key, run a hot wire back to the coil. Then from the same terminal on the coil, run a wire with an inline fuse to the cutoff solenoid and choke on the carb. Then mount a LARGE idiot light in the gauge panel, and run a wire from the oil sending unit to the idiot light. The sending unit is a ground.

This can get you running. IMHO, for off road, a tach and oil pressure gauge are secondary. Idiot lights are far more important. When you are screaming up a hill, or dodging a tree, you don't have time to look at the gauges, but a big bright light will warn you of trouble.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[dustymojave]

Check with DaleM on here for wiring diagrams for buggies.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[Icy]

Multi69s- The wiring from front to back mostly goes through that rubber tube in the pictures. There are two other wires (one is chopped, though), that come directly out of the console, not sure why. Maybe they are supposed to hook up to the fuse block? Anyway, there appears to be a hole punched in the tunnel for the other end of the tube, so that it will run through it. I agree with you on how the wiring should be as accessible as possible, so I'll route it differently. I can see how the sending units have different connections, as this is a new motor- Thanks, I didn't realize that!

As for my "idiot lights", can they just be LEDs?

In your basic running diagram, would the battery connect to the fuse block, or the generator be connected to anything? Thanks for all of your help!

dustymojave- Thanks! He has quite a collection. I found a few diagrams that are basic enough for my needs!

[Multi69s]

For the idiot light, I use the biggest brightest ones I can fit. So if the LEDs will be bright enough in bright day light, you can use them.

As far as the generator and power connections. The generator output (8 gauge) and field windings (14 gauge) will go to the voltage regulator. Then the output of the voltage regulator goes to the battery (8 gauge). From the battery run a heavy (10 or 8 gauge) wire to the fuse block. However the ignition and starter are not generally fused, so from the connection point, run 12 gauge wire to the ignition switch. Then from the switch run a wire back to the coil (12 gauge). Then from the same terminal block on the coil run a wire with an inline fuse to the carb cutoff solenoid and the choke.

I hope that is more clear then mud
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[dustymojave]

14 ga is plenty for the ignition switch to coil.

Since power to the oil pressure sending unit comes through the idiot light, it is best left as an incandescent light to handle the down steam current need. VW used a wire that is somewhere between a 16 and an 18 for that though.

But for the generator light (or alternator), the light bulb nearly HAS to be incandescent. The circuit depends on the resistance of the bulb to function. One CAN put a resistor in parallel with the led for it to work. But you need to know the value of the resistor and how to wire it in. I expect you can learn how to do this, but I recommend that you keep it simple and EZ.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[Icy]

I appreciate the advice guys, but I'm a little confused on what to do with what I have. I'm using a wiring harness from Moore Parts, and the diagram includes a lot of stuff that I don't have yet. Here it is:

I have no lights, switches or anything besides the speedo and the two idiot lights I have to wire. In the diagram, the speedometer has 6 connections! As far as I can tell, my speedo has two (running from the same wire- backlighting?), and the cable.

For this reason, I'm confused as to how the fuse block is involved at all. Besides the hot wire from the battery, I don't know what other wires would need to connect to the fuse block.

I don't have either 16ga black wire running off of the ignition switch to the fuse block or speedo. I also ran the green oil switch wire directly to the ign switch.

Will this setup work? It looks kinda like what was previously installed. I'm surprised that the coil only needs one 16ga wire to power everything.

Also, grounds! I have the battery cable to chassis ground, but I don't have any idea what else needs to be grounded. The only grounds I see are for the headlights, of which I have none.

My idiot lights are for a 12V setup, and they have two black wires each. Hot and ground? Power in/out?

I know this is a lot of info, but I'm struggling with the wiring, and it's slowing my progress! I do have Dale M's dune buggy wiring diagram, but it's a little too simple, and the Moore Parts one has more than I need.

Any help is appreciated! Thanks guys!

[cbeck]

Don't let the entire diagram scare you. 1 thing at a time. K I S S. I put a large 60a fuse between my alt and the fuse box, then pulled everything off the fuse box with appropriately sized fuses for the load I was drawing. Neatness counts, you may be the next guy to work on it. Lay everything out you plan on using, then run a extra wire or two. You may want to add something later. Don't forget the tetanus shot first

[Icy]

Thanks cbeck! That's good advice, I've asked some 12V-experienced people for help. I'm trying to be as neat as possible, and my tetanus shot should still be good!

I'm starting to pull some pieces off of the old engine that I don't have on the new one, and I was wondering if I'd run into any compatibility issues. The new engine has a H0 code (Ghia), which I believe is a '67 1500cc. The old one is a '71-'73 1600cc dual port (AE- code).

A list of things I'd like to swap:
- Fan shroud
- oil filter sending stuff (there's an inlet and outlet on the 1600cc, I'm not sure if this means it has an internal pump or the like.)
- Valve covers
- exhaust
- possibly the alternator stand/oil filler neck.
- intake manifold

Do you think these will all swap over, or should I just leave it?

[dustymojave]

[Icy]

Thanks, Richard! I'm glad most of these will swap over. As far as the intake, I only thought about it because of the little heater pipes, which are just chopped off of the 1600. I'm having a friend come to double-check my wiring, and then I'll hook everything up and see if it cranks!

As far as an oil change, I was going to run SAE 30 weight oil in it. (Hottest days here are like 85 F, coldest start maybe 50 F.)

I was going to get original cloth fuel line (as per Rob and Dave's Aircooled website), but for the spout at the bottom of the fuel tank, I just have a threaded outlet. Can I make a new adapter for the fuel line, or should I just buy a replacement?

I'm excited! Thanks again for the info.

[dustymojave]

I'm not real fond of the cloth braided fuel hose I've encountered in recent times. Not well made like the German stuff of 50 years ago. I've had better luck with just regular low pressure fuel (not high pressure fuel injection) hose. DEFINITELY use decent quality hose clamps.

Make sure the fuel fitting tubes in the carb and fuel pump are tight in place and will not pull out.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.