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Caliper bolt lock plate
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gtixpress
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

Anyone know where to get some of the caliper bolt locking plates (w/ latemodel 3" spacing)? I've found them as part of caliper rebuild kits, but I don't need all of those pieces as my calipers are already rebuilt.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

gtixpress wrote:
Anyone know where to get some of the caliper bolt locking plates (w/ latemodel 3" spacing)? I've found them as part of caliper rebuild kits, but I don't need all of those pieces as my calipers are already rebuilt.

Thanks!


That bega the queation.....who rebuilt them.....and what kit did they use that did not have the lock plate?

Is this early or late?
PMB performance sells early and late Porsche 914 caliper kits. That is equal to 411 and 412 early and late caliper kits......the early kits are the same at late type 3.

These kits for early 411 and 914.....and late type 3.....all include the locking plate....and new anti-rotation plates.....AND the caliper half seals. These kits are $17 each right now.

Thats a freaking bargain. I would spend the $34.....buy the kits, keep the seals for the next rebuild......and use the lockplates which can be reused at least once.
Ray
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gtixpress
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

I rebuilt them but the kit that I used didn't include the lock plates. I have a '69 that I'm upgrading to '72 splindles/calipers. I recall in the old days that the plates could be bought individually (at least for early model cars), but I guess that's not the case any more. I have to purchase new rotors/wheel bearings anyways, so I was going to add the lock plates as well.

Edit: here is one kit I was looking at. http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/411698471. They also have rotors with free shipping which helps alot.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

gtixpress wrote:
I rebuilt them but the kit that I used didn't include the lock plates. I have a '69 that I'm upgrading to '72 splindles/calipers. I recall in the old days that the plates could be bought individually (at least for early model cars), but I guess that's not the case any more. I have to purchase new rotors/wheel bearings anyways, so I was going to add the lock plates as well.

Edit: here is one kit I was looking at. http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/411698471. They also have rotors with free shipping which helps alot.


Look at the sites I listed. Call them. I would bet that they have some spare plates not in a kit.They specialize in these parts.
So if you are putting in late type 3 brakes....which are early type 4 and 914 brakes.....PMB and Auto Atlanta have kits for yours.


As far as the kit quality from AutohouseAz.....don't know. FTE is an international mfg...headquarters Germany. They make good parts but I have never used their caliper kits.

The Centric kits from Rockauto are FAG. The kits from PMB are ATE. The kits from Auto Atlanta are FTE....which says something there as their customers are generally picky. Auto Atlanta lists the plate as no longer available at least seperately.

Since they are FTE parts kits.....dont believe just off hand that the FTE kits in the Autohouseaz.....have everything in the picture in them. I would call and ask. Ray


Last edited by raygreenwood on Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gtixpress
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

Great, thanks for the info. I'll check them out.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

ISPwest also lists this part at $2.95 each but their website lists out of stock. I would call them as well. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

Loctite. . . Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

Nate M. wrote:
Loctite. . . Wink


Agree with the sentiment.......and you can get away with on some cars. But just for others who may search this thread. .....loctite wont cut on 411/412 carw if you drive a lot of curvy hills and roads and/or have larger than original stock tires.

There is enough side load and flex.....that these bolts can and do come loose even 2ith loctite. This is partly because in hot places and with spirited driving.....it also gets too hot in that area.

I never had one come loose on any lf my type 3s and a few were bought with no lock plates.

In my experience, for some reason for a long time back in the day....like late 70s/early 80s...it seemed there were two types of kit for caliper rebuild......the deluxe kit....which came with new bolt lock plates and new anti-rotation plates and caliper half seals......and they were never in stock and quite a bit more expensive..........and the basic kit which was just seals and no caliper half seals.

Unless you were in a very VW centric area with lots of dealers......you always ended up with basic kits.

Then for quite a while when the internet age kicked in .....deluxe kits were easy to find. Now over yje past 2-3 years......the deluxe kits are only at specific high end shops and its getting very hard to find complete kits and even harder to find the seperate extra parts.

For what its worth.....the bolt locking plates.....I suggest.....using them carefully. They only need to touch one flat of a bolt head and do not need to be wrapped tight around a bolt corner. Tap them in place with a wooden dowel.
The gist is....dont crease them super hard....and try not ro scratch the cad plating. They will last through numerous uses. When you take the caliper off for any reason.....be careful with them and derust them and give them a spritz of heavy zinc paint.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

I emailed the PMB company and they do have some of the plates available separately. So I'm going to get a few there and definitely take care of them. It's funny that I've always remembered having them on my Square when working on it. The thought of not using them never occured to me. Yet, I look at my GTI and it just uses torqued bolts. But I'm sure that the spindle and such doesn't flex as much as a 40 year old car does. LOL.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

gtixpress wrote:
I emailed the PMB company and they do have some of the plates available separately. So I'm going to get a few there and definitely take care of them. It's funny that I've always remembered having them on my Square when working on it. The thought of not using them never occured to me. Yet, I look at my GTI and it just uses torqued bolts. But I'm sure that the spindle and such doesn't flex as much as a 40 year old car does. LOL.


A lot has to do with the design of what its going into....and the torque thats on it. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
gtixpress wrote:
Anyone know where to get some of the caliper bolt locking plates (w/ latemodel 3" spacing)? I've found them as part of caliper rebuild kits, but I don't need all of those pieces as my calipers are already rebuilt.

Thanks!


That bega the queation.....who rebuilt them.....and what kit did they use that did not have the lock plate?

Is this early or late?
PMB performance sells early and late Porsche 914 caliper kits. That is equal to 411 and 412 early and late caliper kits......the early kits are the same at late type 3.

These kits for early 411 and 914.....and late type 3.....all include the locking plate....and new anti-rotation plates.....AND the caliper half seals. These kits are $17 each right now.

Thats a freaking bargain. I would spend the $34.....buy the kits, keep the seals for the next rebuild......and use the lockplates which can be reused at least once.
Ray


I was reading through their site about rebuilding your own calipers . Was it only porsche that had the yellow zinc plated calipers . I recall people here who rebuild theirs just clean them up and polish the bores if need be.

Mine don't look bad and the pistons are free yet one of the dust seals is torn and I need the anti rotating clips they were always missing on the right side. I was hoping to just replace the dust seals and install 4 new anti rotating clips . I'm just not into rebuilding them right now and most of all changing the brake fluid. Mine are late 73 T-3 ATE calipers.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
gtixpress wrote:
Anyone know where to get some of the caliper bolt locking plates (w/ latemodel 3" spacing)? I've found them as part of caliper rebuild kits, but I don't need all of those pieces as my calipers are already rebuilt.

Thanks!


That bega the queation.....who rebuilt them.....and what kit did they use that did not have the lock plate?

Is this early or late?
PMB performance sells early and late Porsche 914 caliper kits. That is equal to 411 and 412 early and late caliper kits......the early kits are the same at late type 3.

These kits for early 411 and 914.....and late type 3.....all include the locking plate....and new anti-rotation plates.....AND the caliper half seals. These kits are $17 each right now.

Thats a freaking bargain. I would spend the $34.....buy the kits, keep the seals for the next rebuild......and use the lockplates which can be reused at least once.
Ray


I was reading through their site about rebuilding your own calipers . Was it only porsche that had the yellow zinc plated calipers . I recall people here who rebuild theirs just clean them up and polish the bores if need be.

Mine don't look bad and the pistons are free yet one of the dust seals is torn and I need the anti rotating clips they were always missing on the right side. I was hoping to just replace the dust seals and install 4 new anti rotating clips . I'm just not into rebuilding them right now and most of all changing the brake fluid. Mine are late 73 T-3 ATE calipers.


I have seen the CAD plated calipers on a few cars back in the day...but most of the VW seemed to be mainly grayish-green high zinc paint.

Yes...in a quick pinch its really not that hard to simply run some paper by hand through the caliper bores and put in new seals....but at this age....lots of rust, wear and pitting can cause longevity and balance/drag issues.

Its not complicated...but there can be a lot to think about.

Have you seen my caliper rebuild how to from yesterday?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658176

Don't let the HUGE length scare you (I say that to her all the time! Wink ).....I made it long because I supplied everything from part numbers, safety equipment and chemicals to tools and photos...for those who are a bit afraid of brakes.
Long and boring to start with...but just reading through it before starting....yu can do a totally professional job of your calipers....or at least know what to look for to decide if yours should be left to someone else or replaced Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
blues90 wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
gtixpress wrote:
Anyone know where to get some of the caliper bolt locking plates (w/ latemodel 3" spacing)? I've found them as part of caliper rebuild kits, but I don't need all of those pieces as my calipers are already rebuilt.

Thanks!


That bega the queation.....who rebuilt them.....and what kit did they use that did not have the lock plate?

Is this early or late?
PMB performance sells early and late Porsche 914 caliper kits. That is equal to 411 and 412 early and late caliper kits......the early kits are the same at late type 3.

These kits for early 411 and 914.....and late type 3.....all include the locking plate....and new anti-rotation plates.....AND the caliper half seals. These kits are $17 each right now.

Thats a freaking bargain. I would spend the $34.....buy the kits, keep the seals for the next rebuild......and use the lockplates which can be reused at least once.
Ray


I was reading through their site about rebuilding your own calipers . Was it only porsche that had the yellow zinc plated calipers . I recall people here who rebuild theirs just clean them up and polish the bores if need be.

Mine don't look bad and the pistons are free yet one of the dust seals is torn and I need the anti rotating clips they were always missing on the right side. I was hoping to just replace the dust seals and install 4 new anti rotating clips . I'm just not into rebuilding them right now and most of all changing the brake fluid. Mine are late 73 T-3 ATE calipers.


I have seen the CAD plated calipers on a few cars back in the day...but most of the VW seemed to be mainly grayish-green high zinc paint.

Yes...in a quick pinch its really not that hard to simply run some paper by hand through the caliper bores and put in new seals....but at this age....lots of rust, wear and pitting can cause longevity and balance/drag issues.

Its not complicated...but there can be a lot to think about.

Have you seen my caliper rebuild how to from yesterday?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658176

Don't let the HUGE length scare you (I say that to her all the time! Wink ).....I made it long because I supplied everything from part numbers, safety equipment and chemicals to tools and photos...for those who are a bit afraid of brakes.
Long and boring to start with...but just reading through it before starting....yu can do a totally professional job of your calipers....or at least know what to look for to decide if yours should be left to someone else or replaced Ray


I haven't read it yet , I will. Main thing is the area around the outer dust seals is not rusty in a way like one driven on salted winter roads . There is not a bolt or nut that is rusted . Everything comes free easy . I toyed with the idea of just removing the pads leave the calipers on the car and sneak out the metal clip and replace just the outer dust seals . Don't know if that's even possible , seems like there is not much room to work with the caliper on the car . Later I would dive in and do the complete job .

Right now I really just want to change out the fluid since it's been so long hoping there is not a lot of moisture in the fluid which my guess there is by now and see if there's rust in the fluid just so I have an idea of what I need to deal with . My metal lines look still coated with some sort of grey finish like a plating of some sort . there is no rust inside the car or outside even at the master lines. If lots of rust comes out with the old fluid then well right now I'm sorta screwed . I'm hoping it's not all that bad.

In a way I do worry changing the fluid may create an issue I don't have at the moment , yet then new fluid is not going to cause any rust to get worse or find it's way into seals . If it were leaking I would be dealing with it a bit at a time. When I changed the pads I pushed the pistons in and got no leaks and when I pumped the pedal to bring them out to near the rotor they did not leak and I didn't notice rust on what i could see of the pistons.

This car was never bought as a project or restoration it was in good enough shape when I bought it in 85 to fix some small dents and paint it , I needed something that was a gas hog like my Ford V8 van .

I've done quite a bit on it this last 12 months now it's just the brakes and I never read changing fluid in all the years I've worked on cars most customers wore out brakes soon enough and well before the 2 year time frame. They never offered brake flushes. And of course I didn't read enough in the Bentley where it states to do so.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

It sounds like you calipers are the perfect candidate for a really basic rebuild.

Thats like.....remkve the calipers....dip them in a basic parts cleaning solvent...mainly kerosene based.....just to get all the dust and grime off. Let them dry.

Split them apart and clean evwrything with denatured alcohol.

Look in the parts section of my how to.....and call PMB ....match up the part # and spend $17 per caliper. The kit has all new seals plus caliper half sealing rings and bolt locking plates. Spend another $9 per caliper including shipping at Rockauto for the hardware kit.....and you can be done in 2 hours of work. Just change seals.....lube wiyu brake fluid, install and bleed. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
It sounds like you calipers are the perfect candidate for a really basic rebuild.

Thats like.....remkve the calipers....dip them in a basic parts cleaning solvent...mainly kerosene based.....just to get all the dust and grime off. Let them dry.

Split them apart and clean evwrything with denatured alcohol.

Look in the parts section of my how to.....and call PMB ....match up the part # and spend $17 per caliper. The kit has all new seals plus caliper half sealing rings and bolt locking plates. Spend another $9 per caliper including shipping at Rockauto for the hardware kit.....and you can be done in 2 hours of work. Just change seals.....lube wiyu brake fluid, install and bleed. Ray


My calipers have the pin in the center for the spring loaded compensator and it's fixed in place so you can't really polish the bores like you describe in your write up.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
It sounds like you calipers are the perfect candidate for a really basic rebuild.

Thats like.....remkve the calipers....dip them in a basic parts cleaning solvent...mainly kerosene based.....just to get all the dust and grime off. Let them dry.

Split them apart and clean evwrything with denatured alcohol.

Look in the parts section of my how to.....and call PMB ....match up the part # and spend $17 per caliper. The kit has all new seals plus caliper half sealing rings and bolt locking plates. Spend another $9 per caliper including shipping at Rockauto for the hardware kit.....and you can be done in 2 hours of work. Just change seals.....lube wiyu brake fluid, install and bleed. Ray


My calipers have the pin in the center for the spring loaded compensator and it's fixed in place so you can't really polish the bores like you describe in your write up.


Actually you can.. same type of tool..

But take two plugs from the 2×4. Once you cut them, stack them up neatly with the drill bit in the center. Tack the together with short nails or screws. Attache the threaded rod only to the top one. Dont forget to recess the bottom of the tol wooden disc for the nut.

Now attach your sandpaper. The center pin will go into the dril bit hole in the bottom wooden disc and be the lapping guids.

I will drop in a diagram in a supplement tomorrow.

It was actually making a tool to lap the eatly pin type calipers that I made this type of tool for originally. ..maybe 30 years ago. Ray.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

In my experience, the lock plates are nothing more than yester-year's technology. Not that different from the double nuts with the lock place that hold on front wheel bearings in early Beetles & buses. Today, a wave washer, clean threads and Loctite blue or red is all that is needed.

Doesn't matter what car it's on, if the bolts are not torqued, they will come loose. Loctite is cheap insurance. No new cars have lock plates and they are much heavier and stop faster than any stock VW could dream of, but they don't use them. . . But most, if not all use a thread locker from the factory on those bolts. Cotter pins are even a thing of the past for the most part today.

Technology: it's not all bad; embrace it. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

Nate M. wrote:
In my experience, the lock plates are nothing more than yester-year's technology. Not that different from the double nuts with the lock place that hold on front wheel bearings in early Beetles & buses. Today, a wave washer, clean threads and Loctite blue or red is all that is needed.

Doesn't matter what car it's on, if the bolts are not torqued, they will come loose. Loctite is cheap insurance. No new cars have lock plates and they are much heavier and stop faster than any stock VW could dream of, but they don't use them. . . But most, if not all use a thread locker from the factory on those bolts. Cotter pins are even a thing of the past for the most part today.

Technology: it's not all bad; embrace it. Laughing


Actually...yes...they do have lock plates. They are all over modern Golfs and Jetta suspension. My 2012 Golf uses them on brake and suspension points.

There are NO polymer based locking nuts made...worldwide...for use in areas that see north of 195F....none...not one.
There have actually been recalls and people had DIED...from using nylock type nuts in high heat areas. There are no high strength plastics that can be used in locking nuts.
Teflon is too soft, Torlon and Rulon are too brittle.

This is why MANY axle spindles, brake caliper bolts and most especially lower strut mounting bolts that are close to caliper heat...use deformable locking tabs...still.

Yes...lock washers are great...but can only be used....in high heat places...when its an internal or external toothed washer. The "wave" or tension washer is NOT used in calipers or high heat places because the heat expansion can defeat the holding tension of the wave washer.
platings...making it a corrosion failure risk.

These decision issues of where to use certain fastener like lock washers, spring washers and lock plates...have screwed engineers and auto manufacturers thousands of times over the years.
Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

Never said anything about nyloc nuts etc. Red Loctite alone will keep virtually any bolt locked in place even in fairly high temp environments like engines.

Never seen lock plates on any more modern cars coming through my shop. Most German cars these days don't use a hex head on the bolts so there would be no way to use a lock plate. Most are allen, triple-square or some such and lock plates would do nothing. They use spring washers & Loctite type stuff on the threads to keep them in place. Seem to be working pretty well.

Obviously, if you want to use lock plates, by all means go for it. My only point is that these days, we have other, better means of keeping bolts in critical places from falling out which makes the lock plates obsolete IMHO.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Caliper bolt lock plate Reply with quote

Nate M. wrote:
Never said anything about nyloc nuts etc. Red Loctite alone will keep virtually any bolt locked in place even in fairly high temp environments like engines.

Never seen lock plates on any more modern cars coming through my shop. Most German cars these days don't use a hex head on the bolts so there would be no way to use a lock plate. Most are allen, triple-square or some such and lock plates would do nothing. They use spring washers & Loctite type stuff on the threads to keep them in place. Seem to be working pretty well.

Obviously, if you want to use lock plates, by all means go for it. My only point is that these days, we have other, better means of keeping bolts in critical places from falling out which makes the lock plates obsolete IMHO.


Yes...many use multi point bolts and only some ai find use lock washers. It also depends on where and what the part is that its holding.....and what its maintenance and removal cycle is.
Many of the multipoint fasteners on newer cars that are not really designed to be removed but once or twice in a cars life... use a deformed (dented) lock nut. That means both nut ane bolt get replaced.

The use of thread locking liquids in factory builds outside of engine components is actually not very high.....especially in high heat areas....and most importantly because proper use of them on an assembly line requires an engineered method of uniform application , pre-cleaning both fasteners and priming surfaces.
They use thread lockers on suspension and common parts as a last resort when a cheap simple replacement fastener cannot be used first.

The fastener plate.....call locking tab washers.....are still used in many places where the application and cost make sense.

But I do agree. There is no end to the new and updated types of fastener locking systems out there.

In the case of these bolt locking plates....a serrated lock washer works just fine if you dont have them. Also a single bite split lock washer works well. Ray
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