2x 1973 Orange Squarebacks to become one EV and some parts

[marujo.sortudo]

Well, my building begins. I picked up an amateur conversion of a 1973 orange, manual Squareback to Electric a couple of years ago aka The Pumpkin and drove it around for about a year despite it being quite rusty underneath. I became a bit enamored with it despite its short range (22 miles,) beat up seats, and rust, so I did the foolish thing and got another 1973 orange, manual, non-op Squareback with considerably less rust aka As Yet Unnamed or AYU for short. AYU has weak/strong points that offset the Pumpkin nicely. I plan on combining the best of the two, redoing the electric drivetrain to a much higher/safer level of finish, and possibly extending the range with fancier batteries. My goal is a stock look and near stock weight where all EV components are located in previous engine/heat exhanger/fuel tank spaces. I'm shooting for and fairly confident I'll end up with 40-50 mile range at 55 mph in hilly Maine. I'm in no hurry as this will be mostly 3-season (NO MAINE SALT!,) just-for-fun car.

Of course, the first task will be to put any rust to sleep on AYU and get its brakes functional again. The PO was in the process of totally refurbishing them so that work is partly done, but I'll need to finish it and double check everything. Next after that will be to go through the steering and suspension. Then, I'll get the EV drivetrain reinstalled (pretty easy) and hopefully get her back on the road and inspected. If that all goes well, come next winter I'll take the EV drivetrain back out (easily done in a day) and fully repair and repaint everything, replace gaskets and seals, etc., etc.

I'm hoping this all will be of some interest to folks here who are having a hard time sourcing old engine parts and wouldn't mind a simple, reliable albeit short-range drivetrain. So far, I've removed all the EV components from the Pumpkin and wheeled AYU into the garage to begin the work on it. Below is a picture of when I was shuffling them around with a rope pull by myself on one of the coldest days this year. I wasn't cold

AYU has an engine and most of the exhaust complete with rusted out heat exchangers. I've been given good reason to believe it ran well when parked in '83 and I'll be seeking advice about how to most carefully remove it (and the fuel system) and hopefully return it all to the community as either as one piece or parts, whichever makes the most sense.

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[marujo.sortudo]

I've uploaded some pictures of the old EV install (a bit unsafe, please do not follow as a guide!):

(There were originally some strap/hold-downs on the rear battery pack, I doubt they would have held the batteries in an accident. Just one of the safety issues with the old install.)

[marujo.sortudo]

And my newer much less rusty Square that'll I'll be trying to get back on the road with the same components by a more deliberate install with a focus on safety and perhaps some extra voltage for better hill climbing ability. Here's how it looks to start with the interior removed:

This car spent many years either garaged or covered, but condensation did some damage (mostly surface) here and on the front hood edge:

I'm very pleased that the front fenders seem quite intact compared to my last one where they were half rusted out:

I wonder if this caulk has anything to do with it:

...and how hard it will be to get the fender off.

This area needs repairing and wasp/mouse nests fully cleaned out:

The only other significant rust is the heater channels, but they way better than you might expect for an Ohio car. I'm hoping to do some small fabrication and torch welding/brazing to repair them. Perhaps with some of the remnants of my part car's channels if there are any. Pics will be forthcoming when I've cut the cancer out there.

The PO was nice enough to sandblast and powder coat the wheels.

He also started in on a brake system rebuild which I'll have to review and finish.

Comes with an aftermarket moonroof:

Although, this is almost my favorite part:

And for my first question, what is this?

[marujo.sortudo]

For some context, this is my first attempt at car restoration, so I'm sure I'll be making some newbie mistakes. I'd appreciate any suggestions for improvements to my methods. I'm hoping for more of restore than a restroy, and I'll be perusing the extensive forums here a bunch. You probably won't see me post much advice, though, as I don't know enough yet!

I started by fixing up around the headlights with Ospho and then Rustoleum. I'm thinking I've already made my first mistake here, by neither neutralizing the acid nor putting on an heavy primer of some kind. I'm not too worried, as I plan on eventually taking off the front fenders and giving them full treatment. That said, any tips are welcome as I'll be tackling more stuff like this and I'd like to lay down a good solid paint base for a future full body repaint.

In this pic, you can also see that I brought my nearly rust free hood from my parts car and installed it. All went well except for the springs. Previously, my parts car had a hood springing action that was good as new. It would open all the way and hold there firmly. The newer cars hood springs seemed a bit anemic. So, I swapped hoods and springs on both cars. Now they are both a bit anemic, despite the fact that the parts car had its springs on the rearmost notch and now they're on the new car on the forward notch! What did I do wrong?

[Intrinsic]

If the canister in your photo is in the front wheel well, its the expansion canister for your evaporative emission control system. Since in your EV you no longer have a fuel tank, its safe to remove. You may find another similar tank, either in the rear wheel well, or above the transmission. This will be the charcoal canister in the emission control system. Again, as the EV has no fuel tank, its safe to remove this canister as well.

[marujo.sortudo]

Well, the evaporative emission system is now removed along with some other fuel fill related parts (see classifieds if interested.) It felt nice to make some progress removing some parts that are going away even though it'll probably be a few weeks until I'm able to remove the engine. Did find a bit more softness along the driver's side rocker panel that'll bear some investigation. Might be more work ahead there than I'd hoped, c'est la vie.

[Mike Fisher]

The VW color is known as Clementine Orange & can be bought online at www.apstowerpaint.com We had the best luck with their acrylic lacquer spray cans of color & clear coat.
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[marujo.sortudo]

Thanks, Mike. I'm sure even with my lousy phone camera it's obvious how little Rustoleum Orange matches the existing paint. I have a couple of other locally available oranges I'll try, but I expect they'll be only slightly better. I'm pretty sure I don't want to go the clear coat route long term as I tend to like less glossy finishes and it helps the car look its age. I will be finding a way to match the color eventually, though. In the short term, I'm focused on rust repair, getting it back on the road, and laying down a good base coat for when I eventually do a proper paint job. While the window seals are all old, they seem to not be leaking, so I plan on putting off replacing all the seals and painting the whole car for a couple of years anyway.

[bluebullseye]

Is the EV drive something you pieced together or a kit from someplace like Wilderness EV? I have great interest in converting. I'm gathering your range could be increased by adding more batteries? Can a bigger electric motor get faster speeds (not looking for a racecar but to keep up with traffic on short drives).

Any info is appreciated!
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2018 VW Tiguan SE | Black with Golden Oak seats
1972 VW Type III Squareback | Kasan Red

Writer and Independent Publishing Consultant in the DC suburbs: www.johnhmatthews.com

[marujo.sortudo]

The PO did the conversion on this one using a kit from EVAmerica. He had no previous wiring/electric experience and was able to make something that worked using their kit and direction. He never boxed the batteries, though, and ran the traction pack wires right under the driver's seat inside the cabin, neither of which I recommend. There's lots of great info on DIY conversions on diyelectriccar.com . You can also shop for parts in the classifieds there and there are some other sites too, if you're looking for second hand parts which often sell for 1/2 price or less, esp. if bundled from a former EV or a abandoned conversion. There's probably an EV club in your area where you could learn a lot too.

Range can be increased up to about 40-45 miles with lead-acid batteries if you have A LOT of them, say about 1100 pounds worth. With the pictured batteries, the car has a range of about 23 miles in hilly coastal Maine. You can further increase range and performance and reduce weight by using modern batteries, usually a variety of lithium batteries that is very safe, LiFePO4. They cost $$, though. For example, if you spent about $10K on batteries, you could get a range of 100 miles @ 45mph. You can also extend range a bit (5% or so) by using an AC motor with regenerative braking, but that's $$ too. Aero mods or weight reductions are another way to increase range.

Speed is easier to achieve, you just need a bigger motor and higher voltage and there's plenty of room for a motor in a type 3. In fact, some EV's are built exclusively for drag racing because electric motors develop their full torque from zero RPM. In fact, with a powerful motor and a manual transmission, you would probably never use 1st or 2nd gear. Just start in 3rd.

My goal with the battery is pack size I selected is to not have to buy a new motor or controller, but to get more performance by replacing the charger and batteries. Right now, on long uphill runs I get stuck at 25 mph. Anywhere else, I can go whatever speed I want. The current battery pack is VERY undersized and weighs 656 lbs because its lead-acid. I also want all the batteries to be in the old motor and fuel tank space so the car has stock feel and can carry lots of cargo. More batteries = more range, but does cut into your cargo capacity because of the battery weight.

The type 3 is a great car for conversion. Lots of places to put components, manual brakes and steering, and a fairly light car with good cargo capacity. You could also get more range by converting a lighter or more aerodynamic car. Beetles are some of the cheapest cars to convert for example (mostly because of their weight.)

Here's some type 3's:

http://www.evalbum.com/1745
http://www.evalbum.com/3385
http://www.evalbum.com/2159
http://www.evalbum.com/2816

[BSQUARE]

[Multi69s]

Do you charge it 110? Also, what is your charge time, and the motor voltage?
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69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[marujo.sortudo]

On the subject of paint, the closest rattlecan available on store shelves here is Allis Chalmers "Persian Orange." It's not a match for brilliant orange, but it is close with a tiny bit more red in it to my eye. It's quite pretty. I'm pretty sure that if I had a can of brilliant orange it wouldn't match almost any panel on my car as faded and discolored as they are. So, I'm thinking I going to focus on rust removal for now and might just use the Alis Chalmers paint as primer cover until the day when I get around to painting the whole thing. Right now I want to stay focused on getting road safe and inspected, and then make the car better each winter in my shop.

Currently, the charger and battery pack are a nominal 96V. The charger runs off of 110V and will do a full charge in 7 hours, but after 4 you'd have probably 16 miles of range. In fact, the previous owner's evalbum page lists the components I have. The only thing I've replaced is the DC-to-DC converter.

http://www.evalbum.com/1858

I find the 96V a bit underpowered, especially because its a smallish battery bank and the voltage will sag pretty good under heavy, continuous load. I suspect 96V might perform very well with lithium batteries due to less voltage sag and less weight. The motor and controller are both rated to 120V, though, and I plan to not take any chances and upgrade when I get the funds. That will necessitate a new charger and I plan on getting one that can also charge from 220V and could except charges from public stations, probably J1772. For reasons of economy and simplicity, I'll probably do that once I use up the current battery pack.

[Multi69s]

Just wonder if there would be any advantage to going to Golf cart batteries?
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[marujo.sortudo]

The main advantages to golf cart batteries (like I have right now) are simplicity, low initial cost, and hard to destroy as long as you water them. Downsides are weight, Peukert factor, and size.

[marujo.sortudo]

Well, I finally got around to removing the engine, but it seems I've been thwarted by some low quality XZN aka Triple Square bits sold at Carquest under the brand name Lisle. Made in America, but not very well. Some of them have dents in the bits without use, so I'm guessing they're unhardened. Worse yet, the 8mm one was made with the ridges unevenly spaced. It seems I'll have to wait to get the axles off. If any one is vacationing up in Maine this summer and wants to take an FI engine and some other parts back with them, make me an offer. I'll put it in the classifieds once I can drop it and get plenty of pics.

[erikhaha]

Marujo, great thread. So I originally bought my 69 squareback with the intent on converting it to electric at some point. Well about a year ago the motor died and that is when I started doing research into the conversion.

So from all of the info that I have found it looks like EV conversions are quite costly. For example if I want a very basic dc motor and lead acid batteries I would be looking in the $5000 range. And that is with about a 25 mile range and performance on the lower end. Then if I want to go AC motor and lead acid batteries or lithium batteries so that I can get a lot longer range and increased speed then I believe the price for conversion jumps up to around $10,000+

So at this point I really can't justify that much cost, unless you can point me in the right direction or my #'s are off.

Let me know if you have any other info, because I would still like to do this conversion.

[bluebullseye]

Erikhaha - I'm in the same boat. I wanted to convert to electric, but the cost is just too prohibitive. A Wilderness EV kit without batteries would run $5k and indeed only have a 20-30 mile range. A good conversion with the Zelectric system would be closer to $20k with batteries.

The $1300 engine rebuild on my 1600 is looking mighty good. Could rebuild that three times for the cost of one electric conversion, and not have range anxiety.
_________________
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2018 VW Tiguan SE | Black with Golden Oak seats
1972 VW Type III Squareback | Kasan Red

Writer and Independent Publishing Consultant in the DC suburbs: www.johnhmatthews.com

[marujo.sortudo]

Well, cost is certainly an issue for an EV conversion with new parts. EV parts can become very cheap 2nd hand (usually 20-50% of new,) though, even if barely ever used and especially if purchased as part of someone's failed/abandoned conversion. The used market for them is largely non-existent. Long range is very expensive and often costs a ton in batteries. I don't want a ton of batteries, because that makes mistakes very expensive. AC motors, while awesome for the joy of driving with regen braking and a tiny increase in range, don't justify themselves on any kind of cost-basis. So, for me, I'd like to get useful range for short trips and just have an almost dead simple system. 60 miles would be a dream to me and get me everywhere I would want, but even 30-40 would be really useful and probably closer to my budget. Equally important to me is having the batteries fit without ruining the stock look of the interior, or even trunk. Having enough power to pull a small trailer would be pretty handy, too. My other car is a 2000 Honda Insight, so I'm hoping to make the Squareback my cargo hauler and let the Insight be for range which it does really well.

[marujo.sortudo]

Another point to keep in mind is that battery cost will eventually pay for itself if you get the full life out of the batteries vs. gas at probably somewhere around $2.50/gal or so. This is way easier to do with Lead-Acid, or a small lithium pack, though. It takes an awful lot of miles to make a dent in a big lithium pack's lifespan/cost. Lately, I've been thinking that the best add-on would be a good quick-charger as that could effectively expand your range quite a bit if you've got an hour or two, and public chargers are popping up everywhere. Sometimes the juice is even free. Of course, the chargers aren't cheap either. I'm going to stick with my Trojan T-1275's until they die (perhaps adding 1 or 2 more for added power,) and then consider what Lithium I can find within my budget. The car needs a lot of love before then. I'm mostly looking forward to getting it back on the road for the first time in 30 years. Might be a while, though. I have a very busy summer ahead.