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New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work
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danielzink
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Got some new arms and had some other issues with the stub axles (see previous thread) and now I need to sort out my existing disc brake kit.

Here's the bracket mounted with the stock spacer:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've verified that everything sits flush and nice but there seems to be a difference with these aftermarket bearing carriers.

Here's the bracket and mounted:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And here's the issues:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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It's not much...maybe 1/16th or even 1/8th off...

I've got a local shop that I can do a drop off and they'll machine the brackets...I'm wondering if I have 1/8th milled down here - will it affect the strength of the bracket much:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The other option is to use a thinner "front" shim to pull the rotor in a smidge.

I can't find online thinner front spacers...but with my other previous issues I got some various thickness "rear" shims:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Would it be a bad idea to use the thinnest rear spacer in the front ?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Any advice/help is appreciated.

Thanks !

Dan
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

It all comes down to the arms being a bad product and manufacture put it back on you....

Dale
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tripicana
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Those brackets look THICK. From the pics, there are no threads past the end of the axle nut? Not much axle spline engagement?

Is the axle seal supposed to go into the bracket, and not use the stock seal cover? The axle seal isn't sealing anything on a splined area.

I know this doesn't address your caliper alignment issue, but something else looks funny here...
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danielzink
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

tripicana wrote:
Those brackets look THICK. From the pics, there are no threads past the end of the axle nut? Not much axle spline engagement?

Is the axle seal supposed to go into the bracket, and not use the stock seal cover? The axle seal isn't sealing anything on a splined area.

I know this doesn't address your caliper alignment issue, but something else looks funny here...


Here are some better pics.

This is the fully "assembled and torqued to spec" side:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now...on the other side this is what I have for spline length:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and rotor spline depth:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Both...by my unexact measurements are at 2 1/2"...

Let's be honest here....I'm not getting my money back for these arms...I've drilled them for my spring plates....I've welded shock mounts to them....blah blah blah...I don't have the kind of cash to throw at another set of arms and bin these...

By my logic I have a couple of options....

If spline engagement looks liveable then I have the mounting surface of the caliper mount machined (as shown earlier):

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If I need more spline engagement then I can do (2) things:

Have the thicker shims I used machined down a smidge:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and...*maybe ?* have the face of the caliper mount bracket shaved a bit as well ?:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All of that is going to cost me a whole lot less than starting over with a new set of arms....

Thoughts ?

Thanks, Dan
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Dark Earth
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Just a thought ... Measure how thick your original stock inner and outer spacers were. Determine if you can get away with a little bit thinner spacer on the inside, where you were rubbing before. If you can ... have the inside spacer machined down to where it isn't rubbing, but has minimal space between the axle and the hub, then machine the outer spacer down to where the inside and outside spacers equal the measurement of your original stock spacers. If you can't get away with a thinner inner spacer, maybe just machine the outer spacer until you get an equal inner and outer spacer measurement as the original, like you're already talking about. Then if the caliper still doesn't fit, you'll have no choice but to machine it down as well. You'll have a one off set-up, but you should be able to get it to work if it's only off by 1/16"-1/8".
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Another thought ... Are the hubs in the aftermarket arms the same as the stock arms ?

If so, they were welded too deep towards the inside. If that's the case, it might be better to machine the inside of the hub 1/8" and stick with the stock bearing spacers. ( other-wise the axle and cv's are being pushed towards the trans as well).

If the hubs are different, maybe the machinist can make the aftermarket hubs identical to the stock hubs enabling you to use the stock bearing spacers.

You have a lot of variables. I'm just spit-balling ideas here.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

lose the caveman caliper bracket and make your own, and weld it to the arm.
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

The thickness of caliper bracket also has effect on how bearing retainer plate clamps bearing in place.... IF bearing outer shell is not clamped proper bearing can move laterally and also rotate, neither thing is good...

I would backup and step or two and grind the rim of bearing holder till you get flange clearance, then deal with brake caliper/rotor... You initial problem with shaft fit up on rear of arm is still killing you even with manufacturers patch up with extra wide spacer.... VW made everything to specific tolerances/dimensions and it works on 10,000,000 cars what is one thing on your car that was initial indicator there was a problem....

A big part of your problem starts here.... And more shims are not the answer

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dale
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Do you have a og stub you can stick in there and see if you have the same issue? Some thing is machined wrong. If you are lucky it will be the stub, some thing tells me you won't be that lucky. I would start with what Dale said, and add don't remove all the weld and make flush,that might weaken the area. If the bearing spacing is off from the housing you may have to resort to all of the above. Good luck and let us know how you work it out. I wanted to add on my aftermarket arms and stubs I have about 1/8 " of axle sticking out past the end of the axle nut.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

In picture of fully torqued axle nut do you have full access to cotter pin hole... If not, its not good....

And with pictures like one below with parts (stub shaft) not fully inserted, its hard to tell what you are trying to do becasue partial install of parts visually confuses people as the are trying to figure out what is going on and problem is not clearly shown... Remember we can only make suggestions based on information you provide...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And I would NOT machine off any material here as it is where the threads are that hold the bolts that hold caliper, any reduction of thread reduces reliability of brake system....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also can you explain the difference in rotor/caliper position in these two pictures...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dale
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danielzink
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Dale M. wrote:
In picture of fully torqued axle nut do you have full access to cotter pin hole... If not, its not good....

Yes - plenty of access for the cotter pin

And with pictures like one below with parts (stub shaft) not fully inserted, its hard to tell what you are trying to do becasue partial install of parts visually confuses people as the are trying to figure out what is going on and problem is not clearly shown... Remember we can only make suggestions based on information you provide...

Apologies..

And I would NOT machine off any material here as it is where the threads are that hold the bolts that hold caliper, any reduction of thread reduces reliability of brake system....

Okay

Also can you explain the difference in rotor/caliper position in these two pictures...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just different views. One from the back side and one from the front.


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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

danielzink wrote:
Dale M. wrote:
In picture of fully torqued axle nut do you have full access to cotter pin hole... If not, its not good....

Yes - plenty of access for the cotter pin

And with pictures like one below with parts (stub shaft) not fully inserted, its hard to tell what you are trying to do becasue partial install of parts visually confuses people as the are trying to figure out what is going on and problem is not clearly shown... Remember we can only make suggestions based on information you provide...

Apologies..

And I would NOT machine off any material here as it is where the threads are that hold the bolts that hold caliper, any reduction of thread reduces reliability of brake system....

Okay

Also can you explain the difference in rotor/caliper position in these two pictures...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just different views. One from the back side and one from the front.



What confuses me is in the two different pictures the caliper is in two different positions to center casting line for caliper.... whibh picture is correct...

Dale
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danielzink
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

I'm slowly coming to a resolution on this...

I've ground down the back of the bearing housing so that I can use the stock rear spacer and get proper spline engagement as well as more threads on my castle nut.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Still having issues with the caliper mount.

Turns out there are a couple different "thicknesses" between the different styles of mount.

my existing mount:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Two other styles:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


difference in mount thickness:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


all three mounts:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The issue is of course...with the arms I have...the thicker mount is pulling the bearing cap away from holding the bearing properly.

This could potentially let the outside bearing move at least 40 or 50 thou....

I have choices...

I could buy a set of the black (thinner) mounts...wait for them to get here from wherever...

or...again....

Take my mounts to a local machine shop and have them milled to the proper thickness...



Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

or make your or mount and weld it to the arm. I have done this before its not a big deal.

-but-

even with the mount installed, how can the bearing be loose in the housing, if axle nut is torqued?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

B Ramsey wrote:
or make your or mount and weld it to the arm. I have done this before its not a big deal.

-but-

even with the mount installed, how can the bearing be loose in the housing, if axle nut is torqued?


Outer bearing....

....the inner race "floats" being as it's a needle bearing - not a roller bearing like the rear.

You can take out the inner race and leave the bearing in place.

The bearing itself is secured by the bearing cap.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

danielzink wrote:
B Ramsey wrote:
or make your or mount and weld it to the arm. I have done this before its not a big deal.

-but-

even with the mount installed, how can the bearing be loose in the housing, if axle nut is torqued?


Outer bearing....

....the inner race "floats" being as it's a needle bearing - not a roller bearing like the rear.

You can take out the inner race and leave the bearing in place.

The bearing itself is secured by the bearing cap.


ok, you have a different setup than anyone else. ever.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Those weld on caliper mounts might be the easy way out. You might have to modify[grind a little] but you center your caliper on the rotor after mounting it to the mounting bracket and buzz the mount on to the arm.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

B Ramsey wrote:
danielzink wrote:
B Ramsey wrote:
or make your or mount and weld it to the arm. I have done this before its not a big deal.

-but-

even with the mount installed, how can the bearing be loose in the housing, if axle nut is torqued?


Outer bearing....

....the inner race "floats" being as it's a needle bearing - not a roller bearing like the rear.

You can take out the inner race and leave the bearing in place.

The bearing itself is secured by the bearing cap.


ok, you have a different setup than anyone else. ever.


I think he's saying the inner race of the outer roller bearing is removable. Not that you'd run without it, but it's unlike the inner bearing where the inner race is non removable.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Ahem ... Caliper mount bracket will have effect on how outer bearing outer race is clamped, depending on year model of ends of axle tubea, as depth of bearing insert in each of the bearing caps... Also the thickness of caliper brackets that are different will also effect clamping ability of bearing cap....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Only some serious time with measuring tools are going to solve your problem... Then gettong proper alignment of caliper on bracket is stil at issue....

Dale
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danielzink
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: New arms - advice on correct way to make disc brake kit work Reply with quote

Well I'm up and running again.

Took it for a test drive last night and everything is perfect.

After looking at the relative "flimsy-ness" of the stamped brackets vs my cast bracket - I went ahead and had my brackets machined.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This brought the bearing cap down perfectly.

As far as centering the caliper - I'm just about perfect. The pic looks like it's a smidge off but that's just the angle.

There should be no worries regarding the threads for the caliper mounting bolts. The bolts actually go deeper into the bracket itself now - and are of course Loctite'd.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks everyone.

Dan
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