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New turnkey motor or rebuild stock
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soupcups Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Ok Samba experts. I need some advice regarding my '63 Notchback and the current motor in it. My question is do I have the possible original one, don't know if it is or not, rebuilt or do I buy a turnkey motor? I'm not even sure the one currently in it will even run or what parts in total it is missing. Also, thinking about a 12 volt conversion for the one it or getting a 12 volt built. Does anyone have any suggestions? I know stock is the way to go but I'm not too concerned about full stock on this one. I've included a pic of the motor but I have already gotten some advice about what is missing just from a pic I posted on this site. So it would be hard to tell everything that is missing just from the pic. Also, does anyone know who they can refer me too as far as a shop/mechanic to talk to for advice or the work to be done? I'm in Orange County So. Cal. Does anyone have any feedback on Precision VeeDub and Pete over there or Tim at OC Bugworks? I want to go with a dual carb set up as well but I've read that a '63 has a smaller engine compartment and maybe difficult to do duals. True or not?

Again, thank god for this site and everyone on it. I appreciate any info anyone may have.

Jim


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

soupcups wrote:
Ok Samba experts. I need some advice regarding my '63 Notchback and the current motor in it. My question is do I have the possible original one, don't know if it is or not, rebuilt or do I buy a turnkey motor? I'm not even sure the one currently in it will even run or what parts in total it is missing. Also, thinking about a 12 volt conversion for the one it or getting a 12 volt built. Does anyone have any suggestions? I know stock is the way to go but I'm not too concerned about full stock on this one. I've included a pic of the motor but I have already gotten some advice about what is missing just from a pic I posted on this site. So it would be hard to tell everything that is missing just from the pic. Also, does anyone know who they can refer me too as far as a shop/mechanic to talk to for advice or the work to be done? I'm in Orange County So. Cal. Does anyone have any feedback on Precision VeeDub and Pete over there or Tim at OC Bugworks? I want to go with a dual carb set up as well but I've read that a '63 has a smaller engine compartment and maybe difficult to do duals. True or not?

Again, thank god for this site and everyone on it. I appreciate any info anyone may have.

Jim


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If you find one that you may pass on, let me know. I've had a WTB Ad for 2 years with no luck. many offers for long blocks and/or paper weights. I have a few of these. I just want something to bolt on my type 34.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Nothing better than an anthracite notchback.

That motor looks pretty clean, so my hunch, FWIW, is that it has probably been rebuilt. It looks to be a single port set up for a single side draft carb, so it could be original to the car. You can find the body, chassis and engine codes on this website (hit the "technical" tab) to find out more.

How does it feel when you turn it over?

If you have access to the right tools, do a compression check, but that will only tell you so much.

My advice, which is worth little, is to look on the classifieds here for the used parts you need, but shell out for a new carb. It will cost you $300 bucks or so, but you'll know what you've got and you'll need the parts anyway if you rebuild it stock or, if you don't, you can resell them.

If you want dual carbs, you'll want to go with dual port heads. I think they came on the S models in 63, but I'm not sure. For carbs, your options include CB performance's T3 carb setup and an original-style dual solex setup, available from a few online outfits. There are other options for carbs, too...used and rebuilt, etc.

If do change the carbs, be sure to mate your carbs with the right distributor.

Oh, and you're going to need a fan shroud and a Bentley.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Awesome Info, thanks man. Yea I'm looking for a Bentley now. Ebay has 'em, just waiting for my bid to be accepted. I still have the side draft carb actually. It came with it but it needs to be rebuilt for sure. The guy who sold me the car had the carb in his hand and was turning it over and over like it was a smurf taking a growler in a bottle of pepsi or something. I had to tell him what it was. I think he just had the body work done and new pans and gave up. Lucky for me or it would still be sitting in San Diego. Someone on here has a dual carb setup for me so I got that out of the way which steers me more towards a whole new dual port. Probably a 1776cc. I've got an all og '63 Type 1, you can see the thread on here, so I'm not concerned with staying original. It already has a non year or make correct paint job. It's actually silver, or grey, with a black roof. Seeing the engine compt only you might think it's anthracite. I wish it was but at least the body work and new paint are already done for me.


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Also, I have a rear bottom seat from a '66 square back if anyone is interested in it or if anyone knows anyone.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

I've heard that single port engines make a lot of torque & are desirable. There were a lot of single port engines with dual Solex carburetors on them like the set on my table. Good single port heads are valuable to engine builders. Your engine looks like someone was piecing together an engine for the car? Is that a 6 volt generator on it? You will probably have to supply All the Type 3 parts to your engine builder.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

A 63 has a narrow engine bay - meaning that a dual carb engine isn't going to fit in the engine bay unless you start cutting sheet metal. The value of the car will decrease if you cut sheet metal to modify the engine bay. If you're going for a stock car, you're better off having your engine rebuilt vs. buying a turn key engine (unless you're buying a long block) unless your case is damaged beyond repair. What's the engine #?

You are in a great location for engine work - there are lots of options in Southern California - but you will have to know what you want first.

I recommend that you stick with a single port engine with the single side draft carburetor and DON'T cut any sheet metal to stuff a dual carb engine inside.

If you don't know the condition of your current engine - have it torn down and rebuilt to stock specs. Most of the parts you're probably missing aren't that hard to find.

You should also contain your questions in one thread - they're more likely to get answered correctly if all of your information/questions are in one thread.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
A 63 has a narrow engine bay - meaning that a dual carb engine isn't going to fit in the engine bay unless you start cutting sheet metal. The value of the car will decrease if you cut sheet metal to modify the engine bay.

You should also contain your questions in one thread - they're more likely to get answered correctly if all of your information/questions are in one thread.


Yes, the 63 and earlier cars have a narrower engine bay, but you don't have to cut it to run dual carbs. Dustin's Birch green 63 had dual carbs in it until he got a single port manifold from Greg. They do fit, but I believe the carbs have to be installed AFTER the engine is in the car. It's his car, and if he wants dual carbs, he can install them.
Keep in mind that going 12 volt will require some parts such as a 12 volt fan shround, and generator. You'll also need 12 volt light bulbs, 12 volt wiper motor (or a voltage drop), 12 volt relays, and a 12 volt ignition coil. You'll also have to grind out the transmission to clear the 200mm flywheel and go with a self supporting starter if you choose to go this route. Note; I'm just giving you a heads up, and not trying to sway you in anyway for your decision.

Also, YES, try and keep all your questions in 1 thread if possible. It makes it easier for us to help you out in the long run, as we can quickly reference what you've already done to your car.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
You'll also have to grind out the transmission to clear the 200mm flywheel and go with a self supporting starter if you choose to go this route.


I converted my 64 to 12 volt - no transmission grinding required if you use the right flywheel and starter.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

First off, sorry about the multiple threads. It probably says that somewhere in the rules but I didn't read them, which I obviously should have. I've heard both arguments for the single and dual carbs as far as the fit. I'm hoping to find someone well versed in the Type 3's that will know this and have some definitive answers. The 12 volt conversion has always sounded like a brutal task to me since I owned my first 6 volt vw 28 years ago. Sold a '62 rag and a '64 Notch. If I only knew then... Thank you all for the info and guidance. All suggestions and info are greatly appreciated. Up until 3 days ago I wasn't even sure I was gonna keep this project or sell it. Now the Notch has gotten under my skin and I hope to learn as much from this site on type 3's as I did about bugs. Last thing I want to do is cut the engine compartment, or anything else for that matter. I've also read that you can use a 6 volt starter but have to use basically a step up type of transformer to power it at 6 volts, of course making it spin faster and possibly grinding up the flywheel.
I am unfortunately at wok until tomorrow and I haven't written down the engine numbers and compared them to here so I'm not even sure if the motor is stock or not. I will post when I find out. Yes it is a 6 volt generator.
Thanks again.


Last edited by soupcups on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
A 63 has a narrow engine bay - meaning that a dual carb engine isn't going to fit in the engine bay unless you start cutting sheet metal. The value of the car will decrease if you cut sheet metal to modify the engine bay.

You should also contain your questions in one thread - they're more likely to get answered correctly if all of your information/questions are in one thread.


Yes, the 63 and earlier cars have a narrower engine bay, but you don't have to cut it to run dual carbs. Dustin's Birch green 63 had dual carbs in it until he got a single port manifold from Greg. They do fit, but I believe the carbs have to be installed AFTER the engine is in the car. It's his car, and if he wants dual carbs, he can install them.
Keep in mind that going 12 volt will require some parts such as a 12 volt fan shround, and generator. You'll also need 12 volt light bulbs, 12 volt wiper motor (or a voltage drop), 12 volt relays, and a 12 volt ignition coil. You'll also have to grind out the transmission to clear the 200mm flywheel and go with a self supporting starter if you choose to go this route. Note; I'm just giving you a heads up, and not trying to sway you in anyway for your decision.

Also, YES, try and keep all your questions in 1 thread if possible. It makes it easier for us to help you out in the long run, as we can quickly reference what you've already done to your car.


Yes the carbs will fit without cutting, they do need to be put in after the engine is installed. ( I haven't switched back to the single carb yet)

People convert fuel injected engines to dual port what seems like more often than not so there are always options. dual
Port will require cutting which I would discourage.. Stop by next week and you can check out some different set ups.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

I'll be coming by for sure this week when it's ok with you. Thanks Dustin.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

The difference is power between a single port single carb setup and a single port dual carb set up is minimal in my opinion. The key is to have a well tuned engine with properly functioning parts. On a recent 1100 mile trip, a friend drove his t34 with a single carb 1600 that was rebuilt 15 years ago.n he led the pack and had plenty of power. He also averaged 34mpg. I would suggest that you build the motor back to stock. If you can afford it, take the motor to a trusted source and have them go through it. Finding the missing parts shouldn't be too hard. I would drop the motor and make sure all necessary pieces are there, like the cooling tins under the heads. Visit Dustin and ask many questions and take pictures. I would also suggest you keep it 6v, again making sure the wiring is in good order and all contacts and grounds are clean and shiny.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Thank you Jack for your input. That's very good advice too. Just helps me make up my mind what to do. I think Dustin is going to be a huge asset and will be seeing him this week if his schedule permits.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

soupcups wrote:
Thank you Jack for your input. That's very good advice too. Just helps me make up my mind what to do. I think Dustin is going to be a huge asset and will be seeing him this week if his schedule permits.


I am currently on my way to Minnesota. Will Be back this weekend so whenever is good for you. Having the cars there with different set ups is definitely a big help. My only concern with the single car is getting it to run right and keeping it running right. I have rebuilt one before in my 63 type 34 that ran good for the most part. As I had mentioned in a text to you the 64 single side draft car sold locally to a guy in fountain valley. Cool to have a few local Early cars in the mix..
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Well the number on the bottom of the case is 311101102. Anybody know what that's from or am I looking at the wrong number? The other number on the case is 0175102. The number on the chassis and body are 0162702 which I think makes it a Feb 1963 build according to the chart under technical on here. So it looks like the stock motor. Which doesn't surprise me because the car seems to be original except for the new pans. Also, were the pans spot welded in all locations or where there bolts used on any part of the pan?

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

soupcups wrote:
Well the number on the bottom of the case is 311101102. Anybody know what that's from or am I looking at the wrong number? The other number on the case is 0175102. The number on the chassis and body are 0162702 which I think makes it a Feb 1963 build according to the chart under technical on here. So it looks like the stock motor. Which doesn't surprise me because the car seems to be original except for the new pans. Also, were the pans spot welded in all locations or where there bolts used on any part of the pan?


311101102 sounds like the part # for the case, it's stamped into the side.

0175102 is the Engine #.

Engine # 0175102 is from the end of Feb., 1963
VIN # 0162702 is from the start of March, 1963

Since both of those are close to the month change, it's probably the original engine even they are from different months.

The pans are not bolted in but there are various bolts on the pan.
For instance, the body is bolted to the pan along the outer edges.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: New turnkey motor or rebuild stock Reply with quote

Ok. That's kind of what I thought about the numbers. Leads me to want to have that one rebuilt. Thanks for the info.
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