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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:36 pm Post subject: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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Driving around today 100* heat, stopped for gas.
After filling up, tried 10 seconds cranking, no start.
Cranked six times, no joy. Starter spun fast, battery is good.
Not knowing if 'no spark' or 'no gas',
I sprayed a shot of brake cleaner directly on air filter,
and it started right up and continued to run as usual.
My Westy usually starts right up, hot or cold w/ 1-2 sec of cranking.
What should I look for to diagnose this problem?
(note: 1990 auto,Tiico, 2.0 Audi engine, fuel inj. looks same as wasserboxer.)
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candyman Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 2694 Location: Missoula MT
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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I have been experiencing the same issue. Will eventually start once cooled down. Some will tell you to install a hot start relay. If yours cranks, you do not need that. Hot start relay is for a no crank condition when hot. Turn the key to the on position and listen for fuel pump. If it does not come on the there is your problem. Likely the fuel pump relay is getting heat soaked and causing it to fail. I just replaced mine and so far so good. Also check all your grounds. Not a bad idea to check your plugs too. Report back what you fond as I am very curious about this condition
Last edited by candyman on Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9775 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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candyman wrote: |
...Likely the fuel pump relay is getting heat soaked and causing it to fail... |
^This^ is what has caused mine to fail to re-start in 100°+ weather.
It can be confusing at first because we do stuff (fiddle with wires, spray things, etc) which all give the relay a chance to cool down. Then it starts and we think the last thing we did fixed it.
Easiest diagnostic is to replace the relay with a cool one or just use a jumper wire.
I keep the jumper, a spare relay and a 'tool' for prying the relay out -- all in that same black box:
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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Thanks for the tips, I will check the fuel pump relay
and the fuel pump when it cools off.
Had a prior problem with starter not cranking when hot,
(very common w stock starters) grounds were good, so a
a new gear reduction starter solved that- been flawless for 2 yrs. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:11 am Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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djkeev-- read the OP, it is missing FUEL.
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:46 am Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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It is assumed it is a no fuel symptom, it started and ran normally probably because the heat had dissipated enough, not because of the shot of brake clean.
Compression, Spark, and fuel are always required and when diagnosing a no start condition, should be checked. I don't recall spraying a flammable gas on the air filter as being in the no start troubleshooting flow chart. One good backfire and you might have some incidental damage.
I would get out my testlight and fuel pressure gauge for the next time it won't start. Hopefully you can catch what is actually causing the problem and fix it. _________________ ☮️ |
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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I believe I found the problem:
There were NO relays in the plastic black box in the engine compartment.
Apparently, when the engine conversion was done the fuel pump relay
was relocated under the back seat, with the ECU (see pic).
The relay was a 'no name' in generic black plastic case.
I jumped terminal 87 and 30 and the fuel pump goes on.
I swapped the relay with (#53) from the fuse panel under front dash.
Time will tell if the relay was the problem!
Test driving again today in 100*+ heat.
Good to know how to jump the fuel pump if needed.
My Tiico Westy has been very reliable with none of the balance/shaking issues I've read about with the orig. Tiico engines.
The Audi engine is smooth, torquey, good top end power with higher redline.
I like it better than my three previous wasserboxers.
Next project: get the AC even colder with my custom hydrocarbon refrigerant mix (isopropane/propane). |
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candyman Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 2694 Location: Missoula MT
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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Good investigative work! Please keep this thread active if this did or did not solve the problem, for future search reasons. My petpeeve is searching threads that are a dead end with no conclusion. Thats why i get so annoyed with the "use the search" comments on here. A lot of threads that are relavant to your issues have no conclusion because the OP never checks back in. Enough of my soap box
Good work and hopefully this was the issue! |
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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OK, round two... more data. (pics below)
Drove about 20 miles in 100* heat, AC on full,
Stopped. The radiator fan remained ON for about 5-10 min.
(AC high pressure switch keeps fan on until pressure lowers)
Went to start after 30 minutes, NO GO! fuel pump on, cranked OK, no fire.
Second and third crank- starter was noticably slower, NO START.
Hooked up my battery jumper, and it FIRED right up!!!
Got home, checked battery and alternator voltages.
- At idle, Battery was 12.20 V
- At 3000 rpm, Battery 12.68 V
- At 3000 rpm, Alternator 12.93 V (measured at alternator)
- When cranking starter w/ AC on, 9.29 V !!! (measured at battery)
Alternator should be putting out 13.5V or more, do I need a new alt?
My Theory today - with the AC blowers on high, the radiator fans on high,
and old battery, there is not enough voltage available to fire electronics
and fuel injectors. The AC high side pressure is too high, resulting in the
radiator fan staying on 'high' too long after stopping engine.
(I had a 914 that would die when voltage got low, the fuel injection wouldn't run with low voltages.)
1) Battery is 4 yrs. old, time for a new one.
2) AC charge too high, will lower high side pressure.
3) replace alternator
PIC 1- battery voltage with engine running @ idle w AC on.
PIC 2- battery voltage @3K rpm
PIC 3- Alternator voltage @ 3K rpm
PIC 4- Battery voltage when cranking engine.
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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battery life depends strongly on how it has been treated - I keep mine on a maintainer when not driven more than a week and one is 12 years old
- get an elec. shop to test it - NOT a parts seller with a handheld tester; you want an old guy with a big machine that lives on a cart - he will do a load test (a real one)
I suspect your alt. (actually the voltage regulator built into the alt.) - many places can test this but I wouldn't buy a new one; I'd find a good elec. sho that work on old german cars and have them rebuild it
- new bearings
- new brushes
- new diodes and testing
while it is out, check carefully and see if the mounting is bent - GW has some reinforced items or you can make one
repl. the belt and if the old belt is good keep it as a spare _________________ .... |
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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UPDATE
Installed new (rebuilt) alternator. 14.11 volts at idle! (old alt was 12.2 volts)
NEXT:
- charge AC with Enviro-Safe (propane/butane mix, predicting 110* here next week!)
This should lower my high side pressure= less time radiator fan is on after stopping, which eats battery.
- Replace battery - this one is four years old, that's when they die IMHO. Hoping Interstate will prorate this in exchange for another.
From what I've read this is a great battery Interstate MTP-91
- TEST DRIVE to see if battery+alternator was the 'no start' issue.
Note custom backside alternator bracket- now it's rock solid
Going to burn in hell for using hydrocarbon refrigerant
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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The B+ wires on your alternator appear to have been overheated to the point where they discolored. There are alternative ways to wire the alternator to ensure you have minimal voltage loss to the battery. I would at a minimum re-terminate the wire ends. _________________ ☮️ |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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may be why your battery only lasted 4 years _________________ .... |
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:25 am Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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I thought those wires looked wimpy.
Any links on re-wiring the alternator/battery?
Also links to bigger wires for the aux battery?
Thx |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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VC ha some add-on cables. All gnds need to be taken apart and cleaned - a thread here has pics of each one and its location.
batt. maintainer when not in use. _________________ .... |
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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So far so good with new alternator and new AC refrigerant (Enviro-Safe).
After 45 min run in 100* heat, the radiator fan turns off immed. on shutdown.
(before it stayed on ~10 min. after shutdown, due to high AC pressures)
Blows much colder than old R134. Comfortable cool on 100* days.
NEXT STEP: Went to Interstate Battery distributor today.
They confirmed that my MTP-91 Megatron battery was toast- bad cells.
MTP-91 has been discontinued.
the bad news: the replacement MTP-48 is too tall, interferes w seat
Interstate said they had a MT-41 fits Vanagon, and they don't stock many.
(available at Interstate distributor, typically not in retail stores).
$65 later (prorated old battery), new battery installed- perfect height and fit.
Next projects:
- Two hour run up the Sierras to verify everything is OK for extended travels.
- ditch the GoWesty aux. battery wiring and upgrade the wiring to allow more current to both batteries.
- Install a 'selector switch' to allow jump starting from aux. battery separately.
(I've tried to jumpstart on the GoWesty isolater, no go, difficult access + thin wires !!!)
INTERSTATE MT-41 FITS WESTY PERFECT
WANT TO INSTALL BATTERY ISOLATER/COMBINER LIKE THIS:
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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the stock bttery ground strap is kind of wimpy, I added a second one there and that improved things for me.
yeah the alternator connector looks like it got hot, contacts on plug maybe heat damaged, corroded and or lost spring temper (thus wont hold tight) inspect and repair as needed.
good luck
ps in regards to the hot start relay, although not a problem for you now, itmis a good proactive thing to add, easy and cheap. just did it to my van, last week coming back from a long hot high speed drive whilest camping, it failed to turn over agter filling up. push started fine. now have the relay. i
this will also prolong the life of the key switch, and makes up for marginal key switches.
highly recommend it _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:37 am Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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bluebus- thanks. I will get bigger gauge wiring.
The 'hot no-starter' syndrome is common with VW (and Porsche) starters.
along with sticking solenoids.
My Westy starter used to cr&p out on me randomly when it was hot.
I replaced it with a High Torque starter two years ago, and it starts hot or cold everytime.
Of course, the grounds, cables and battery must be in good shape for the system to be optimal.
If your battery is in good shape, you won't need a relay- it's poor design of the starter. Nature of the Beast.
Check the voltage drop between the alternator and battery with the car running. It should be no more than 0.5 volts.
It should probably exceed 13.5V (running). If not the cable is defective and needs to be replaced.
GOOD VOLTAGE- new alternator
VOLTS WHEN CRANKING ENGINE- battery is toasted.
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pdm777 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012 Posts: 348 Location: Clovis, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: '90 Westy cranks, has spark but NO START |
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UPDATE: test drive #2
Drove 550 miles in 100 degree heat from FresNO to the Sierras.
NO problems with starting when Hot. Started immediately (~1 sec crank).
AC was nice and cool.
On shutdown, Radiator fan ran for 3 minutes at hottest stop.
I do not advise driving the central valley mid-day without great AC !
Highly recommend Grouse Ridge campground.
No RVs (5 mile rough dirt road), 7400ft, lakes, hiking, no fees.
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