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So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne? convertible Triple White
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Yeah, I suspect a stuck valve for sure. Now you have to wonder if other shiny parts inside the engine have a similar coating of that abrasive iron oxide, like the cam shaft for instance? Still sure you want to run it as is?

The taped off ports on the fan shroud connected to the heat exchangers once, if it's been run long like that look the heat exchangers over very carefully for cracks, they rely on that constant airflow to keep cool, even when you aren't using the heat.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

If it were me (which of course it is not) I think I would pull the engine and get it up on a stand so that I could look into it a little deeper. That would also allow you to clean up the engine compartment, have a look at the front main seal and the clutch plate. It is a lot easier to change out the hard to get to fuel lines and the injector seals on the stand.

That would also allow you remove all of the stuff, clean it up, and repaint the tinwork. Then make an informed decision about splitting the case.

You need a buddy who can give you a hand for a day or so.
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
If it were me (which of course it is not) I think I would pull the engine and get it up on a stand so that I could look into it a little deeper. That would also allow you to clean up the engine compartment, have a look at the front main seal and the clutch plate. It is a lot easier to change out the hard to get to fuel lines and the injector seals on the stand.

That would also allow you remove all of the stuff, clean it up, and repaint the tinwork. Then make an informed decision about splitting the case.

You need a buddy who can give you a hand for a day or so.



CURSES!! Do you have to sound so reasonable??

I wish I could... The clutch would probably benefit from a wipe down also.

It sucks working on this thing in the car. No room.

But... I think I will just change the lines that I see are shot and get it running.

It would suck to do all that only to find the motor is blown. Right?

Also, I have a heavy work schedule and kids schedule. I Know I would never get that motor back in once I got it out.
So, I think once I get it up and running I might be taking it to a repair shop for the other stuff.

But you can't really hand a car like this to a mechanic around here and say.. "Get it running" not without getting a Huge bill.

But based on the rockers I'll probably pull that tank and acid wash it.
Reminds me.. I need to get those injector seals.
I'll replace that one side while I'm in there flooding the valve.
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

OK. So I just bought some beck arnley FI seals.

And this throttle cable. I was gonna do bus depot, but I just couldn't swallow the shippiong cost.
Any word on this brand? or are throttle cable all the same.
Gemo Throttle Cable
from Amazon..

In the interest of just getting it running to see what I am working with...
IE... I don't put all this work into the motor if it is shot and needs to be pulled anyway.


Is there a spray that would give the fuel lines a little more life...
Like a belt dressing that will swell up the hoses so they hold fuel for a few weeks...

I know I sound half-assed but I have limited time.
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Yeah, I suspect a stuck valve for sure. Now you have to wonder if other shiny parts inside the engine have a similar coating of that abrasive iron oxide, like the cam shaft for instance? Still sure you want to run it as is?

The taped off ports on the fan shroud connected to the heat exchangers once, if it's been run long like that look the heat exchangers over very carefully for cracks, they rely on that constant airflow to keep cool, even when you aren't using the heat.


Well, the Right side is the last photo and it looked good. Real good.
Of the 4 spark plugs the only one to have any rust on it was the one over the stuck rocker. All the other plugs are ok.


I suppose I should look closely at oil when I change it that comes out of it.

I watched a video of a guy with a stuck valve on a Honda Dream.
That has sat for about 40 years.
He had filled the engine with Type F Transmission fluid to clean out the gunk and varnish. But the valve was still stuck
So He blocked off the intake and exhaust port and and used a grease gun with spark plug sized fitting and pressurized the cylinder with it.
He said once it is filled just keep pumping slow and easy with real light pressure. until it gives..
He says if your slow and careful it won't push the valve seal out.
But he's doing a 2 cylinder...?
Then flush the grease out with diesel run through a fish pump.
Then change your oil two or three times with the last change with a quart of marvel oil... and change after a few hours.

So, this is what I will do as the last attempt before pulling the motor.


As far as rust on the Cam. I'm hoping that the rust was limited to the one cylinder and the left side rockers.

But what do you think about him changing the oil with type F transmission fluid...

Here is the video. This guy is a great southern dude.



Link
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

ATF contains a lot of detergents and is a really light oil that can get into about everything.

When I try to free up a antique tractor engine, I remove the spark plugs and give it a good squirt right in the cylinder. Marvel Mystery Oil does sort of the same thing. After I get it to start, I have also used some ATF in the crankcase with the existing dead oil to get everything at least is suspension and I allow it to get warmed up some but not hot before I then drain everything in the crankcase. Amazing the hunks of crud that comes out of there.

Refill with the normal oil and then I drive that a while (in a VW I would change it again in about 100 miles). Then just go to regular 3000 miles oil changes.
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

So, it would not be crazy to just fill this thing with ATF. Crank, Cylinders and injectors?

I think you can tell I really don't want to tear this down.

I read that some people use a mix of 50% ATF and Acetone as a penetrating oil. That sounds like it would be bad for seals.

What about using diesel as a flush.
I'm a few weeks from starting this thing.

I'm thinking of getting some fogging oil to pump into that injector port...
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Well there is no "miracle goo" (that I know of) that you can spray on the fuel lines to make them good.

You could take the fuel tank out of the equation by having the fuel pump and filter draw directly out of a 5 gallon can of fresh gas. The return line would also go back into the 5 gallon can. Keep in mind that 98% of the gas the pump pumps will return to the tank so only put about 3 gallons in the 5 gallon can with some "techron injector cleaner". Change out the "to engine fuel line" over by the clutch cable and the "return fuel line" over by the starter.

It would be nice to change out the FI seals and those short lines at each injectors. No ATF in there please. Put a loop in the fuel line to bypass the blue cold start valve and hook up you fuel pressure gauge. By putting a chopstick or long skinny screwdriver in the AFM unit, swing the little door and you can trick the fuel pump into running your 3 gallon mix of gas + solvent through the lines, the pump, the fuel pressure regulator, and the fuel rail for a while. The pump should not make a lot of noise (or cavitation due to a clogged filter or run warm).

Try that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
Well there is no "miracle goo" (that I know of) that you can spray on the fuel lines to make them good.

You could take the fuel tank out of the equation by having the fuel pump and filter draw directly out of a 5 gallon can of fresh gas. The return line would also go back into the 5 gallon can. Keep in mind that 98% of the gas the pump pumps will return to the tank so only put about 3 gallons in the 5 gallon can with some "techron injector cleaner". Change out the "to engine fuel line" over by the clutch cable and the "return fuel line" over by the starter.

It would be nice to change out the FI seals and those short lines at each injectors. No ATF in there please. Put a loop in the fuel line to bypass the blue cold start valve and hook up you fuel pressure gauge. By putting a chopstick or long skinny screwdriver in the AFM unit, swing the little door and you can trick the fuel pump into running your 3 gallon mix of gas + solvent through the lines, the pump, the fuel pressure regulator, and the fuel rail for a while. The pump should not make a lot of noise (or cavitation due to a clogged filter or run warm).

Try that.


I will do that if I get the valve unstuck. semi committed to help me fire this up and he's old school, worked in a VW shop in the 80s and early 90s.

My work is picking up and I'm faced with the problem (ahem... actually a good thing) that the money I will save fixing this myself is less than the money I would make if I worked the same amount of time.
So, unless I get this valve unstuck and the thing runs fine off a gas can, I'm going to hand this over to a local re-builder and change out or rebuild all the stuff he touches... Injectors, distributor, starter, alternator, fuel lines etc...
But then I'll be into it for more than I could buy a driver..
Maybe I should just unload it and buy a roadworthy one for $3500.
Frankly, white is not my first choice.I like a burnt orange or baby blue.
I'm a big burly guy and I look funny in small cars and scooters.
Which is a shame because there are many tiny cars on my car bucket list (Fiat, mini, midget, 1950s triumph, Gazzelle Kit car) and a Vespa

Maybe a Thing or a convertible Falcon.


On another note!!!
Check this out...
I wanted to see how bad the cylinders were without tearing apart the motor...
So I took a pickle jar and some fittings and tubing and hooked it up to shop vac.
I vaccuumed out the mystery oil from the initial soaking and it was pretty clean... just cloudy with a few small globs...
Whats in the jar here is what I pulled out of the cylinder is the second pressing after after flooding injector ports with seafoam deep creep and a bunch of fogging oil. The first one pulled out globs and chunks. Actually I was thinking it could pump solvent if you used the exhaust and flipped the bottle upside down

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:20 pm    Post subject: Am I correct in my assumption on what is stuck Reply with quote

So here is a picture.

I think I know what is stuck, but I'm not sure if I understand it entirely.

I was going to pull the rocker train off by removing the two bolts and then free up whatever is loose.

Right now I am thinking it is the rod on the bottom right as I indicated.
The spring moves in and out when I press really hard on the top.

But the bottom rod doesn't move in and out.
It does flop out of the ball socket and I have to lift it up about 1/8" to get it back in.

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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

The pushrods on the bottom shouldn't move or be springy, they are up against the lifters on the cam and push outwards momentarily when it's time to open a valve. The valves with the springs around them should all push in with some force applied and return fully each time, with the rockers removed they should all sit at equal height. If one sits lower it's likely the stuck one, hitting it with a soft blow hammer or piece of wood between the hammer and valve sometimes frees them up as they spring back from each hit. But make sure that piston is down in the cylinder you are massaging, drive the valve into the top of the piston and it'll bend and that's bad.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
The pushrods on the bottom shouldn't move or be springy, they are up against the lifters on the cam and push outwards momentarily when it's time to open a valve. The valves with the springs around them should all push in with some force applied and return fully each time, with the rockers removed they should all sit at equal height. If one sits lower it's likely the stuck one, hitting it with a soft blow hammer or piece of wood between the hammer and valve sometimes frees them up as they spring back from each hit. But make sure that piston is down in the cylinder you are massaging, drive the valve into the top of the piston and it'll bend and that's bad.


I sent this to my buddy and he said that since its the push rod that's not moving that lifter is stuck at the cam.
I spoke to the old owner and he said that the last time the car ran was years ago and it ran fine and that noone... including myself has tried to start it under power since then.
So the new plan is to change the oil over and over until it come out clean and see if that frees it up.

If I get a scope and put it down the oil fill can I see the cam?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

chrisarnt wrote:
If I get a scope and put it down the oil fill can I see the cam?

No, the oil fill leads to a separated area, and there's a drain louver in the way as well.

The only time I've encountered a lifter stuck in as bore was on a flood victim that had sat for years afterwards, the lifter was the least of it's problems.
Lifters don't push in, they sit against the cam and get pushed outwards for a few degrees of engine rotation once every two turns of the crank, the valve springs return them to thier original position and keep them in constant contact with the cam.

Remove the rocker shaft and find out which valve (the things with the springs around them) is sitting lower than the rest. Then turn the engine until it stops and back it up 1/2 turn, then start tapping on that valve until it springs up as high as the rest freely.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
chrisarnt wrote:
If I get a scope and put it down the oil fill can I see the cam?

No, the oil fill leads to a separated area, and there's a drain louver in the way as well.

The only time I've encountered a lifter stuck in as bore was on a flood victim that had sat for years afterwards, the lifter was the least of it's problems.
Lifters don't push in, they sit against the cam and get pushed outwards for a few degrees of engine rotation once every two turns of the crank, the valve springs return them to thier original position and keep them in constant contact with the cam.

Remove the rocker shaft and find out which valve (the things with the springs around them) is sitting lower than the rest. Then turn the engine until it stops and back it up 1/2 turn, then start tapping on that valve until it springs up as high as the rest freely.


OK. I will do that after I finish flushing the motor.
Currently I have it full of diesel. Will let it sit a day and drain.


Funny you should say that only happened on a flooded engine that sat.
Because when I took off the oil drain plate about 4 -6 oz of clear clean water came out.
It was't rusty or red or cloudy. Just clear.
There was no rust on the cover, nor any on the strainer. no corrosion either.
I know that isn't a good thing, but it was so clean..
I'm guessing they sprayed the ever living crap out of the engine compartment prior to selling it.

Anyway...
The oil that came out wasn't that bad.
I got about 3/4 of a gallon out.
Put about 1 gallon of diesel in and then jostled the car around a bunch.

I figure itf it comes out fairly clean I will run a gallon of ATF through it and let that sit a few days then drain well and fill with the 30 oil.

I will tap tap tap on the valve after that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

What's a rebuilt engine for this cost anyway?

On the forum all I could find was polished head fancy motors.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

$3500 will get you there.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Ouch!! IS that installed?

So, maybe I should consider that rat rod baja with an extra working drivetrain for $2000.


I want to put this up on 4 jack stands for a few weeks while I crawl around under there.
The jack posts on the driver side are shot and need to be rebuilt down the road.
If I'm just gonna raise it and lower it I just pick a spot the looks sturdy like on any car.


Whats the best places on this old bird.
I was thinking of getting a few 2x6 planks and running them from one stand to the other, but then I'd be restricted on the fuel lines...
Or do the lines run right down the middle?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Lines run down the middle.

I never jack on the jack posts, always on the big frame bars that go front to back on the vert. Then use stands on them too.

Never jack under the engine, especially with the ignition on.

Why not just flush the tank with fuel and use a washable filter instead of the standard?

I can understand why you want to get it started, If not an expert, taking the engine out means possibly not being able to put it back correctly, and losing and breaking stuff.

You should also check all the vacuum hoses, all the degradeable stuff. FI is sensitive to that.

They are really great to drive, really really really great. Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Yes the fuel lines run through the tunnel between the seats. Replace the front ones as the fuel comes from the tank to the fuel pump and the return line.

You can jack up the car using a floor jack on the "center tube/tunnel" and place GOOD jackstands under the rear torsion bar.

Before I stick my "precious to me body" under I give ti a good hard "butt shove" to make sure it will not crush me while i am under there. I am still to young to die in my opinion. Shocked

Then replace the pump line over by the clutch cable and the return line over above the starter on the right side. Us the good FI hose and good clamps please.

While you are under there, clean (on the grinder using the steel brush) and tighten do the chassis ground strap over on the drivers side at the front of the transaxle.

A decent 1600 engine can be had for about $3500 or so as a long block from CPR. If you go that route, send off the injectors to cruzinperformance for cleaning and the alternator to your local rebuilder to have it rebuilt. Fix the heaterboxes and the exhaust. Remove all of the tinwork and get it cleaned up, sandblasted, and painted. Then you will install it all on the engine before you put it in the car.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: So, I just bought a 1977 Champagne convertible! Triple White Reply with quote

Wow! great advice.

Thanks for the tip on not removing the fuel tank.
What about a magnetic inline filter like a wix to grab the rust partical and then the secondary little filter.

Randy? Why would I send off the injectors? Aren't they fairly cheap?
What am I missing?

And lets say I don't send them out, can I soak them in something?
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