Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
End Play Shims
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
1968KdFWagen
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: Granville
1968KdFWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:27 pm    Post subject: End Play Shims Reply with quote

I am currently rebuilding a 1600 single port engine. The case didn't need lined bored (just all new bearings), the crank and camshaft were fine and reused. Would I need new shims to adjust the endplay or since nothing was changed but the bearings should they be fine to use?
_________________
Ian

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."

1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Billmullins
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2016
Posts: 1

Billmullins is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

Its possible the old shims will be fine. But its so easy to measure and be certain, why not do it and have peace of mind ?
Besides, how do you know if endplay was correct before ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
1968KdFWagen
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: Granville
1968KdFWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

Thats the thing, I haven't the tools to measure endplay. Are there any suggestions of as to how I could do it, without the tools?
_________________
Ian

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."

1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pistolpetecowboy
Samba Member


Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 122
Location: Oklahoma
pistolpetecowboy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

1968KdFWagen wrote:
Thats the thing, I haven't the tools to measure endplay. Are there any suggestions of as to how I could do it, without the tools?


You could make your own tool with some nuts, bolts, and a bit of welding but they're only $17 during May. Smile
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7095
_________________
70 Beetle, 70 Beetle, 71 Beetle, 71 Super, 73 Super, 74 Beetle, 2000 Vintage Speedster, 2020 Jeep Renegade, 71 Squareback
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

1968KdFWagen wrote:
Thats the thing, I haven't the tools to measure endplay. Are there any suggestions of as to how I could do it, without the tools?

Is your engine still apart in pieces? Do you have a set of feeler gauges?

Assemble the crank + #1 bearing + 2 of the 3 shims + flywheel on your bench. Rest it on the flywheel with the crank up vertically.
Snug the gland nut tight but not "super tight" (50 ft-lbs is enough, no need for 200+ for this measurement).
The #1 bearing and shims will be a loose fit between the flywheel and the crank because one shim is missing. Slide your feeler gauges in between the bearing and the spacers until you find the thickest one that will slide in w/ resistance (stack the feeler gauges if needed). This is the gap you need to fill with the last shim but you will also be leaving 0.004" of endplay. So subtract 0.004" from your feeler gauge measurment and see if your 3rd shim is this thickness? If it is not, you need to order the proper size shim. When you install the correct thickness 3rd shim you have be left with the proper amount of endplay (0.004").

With the crank and flywheel out of the engine end-play can be this simple to measure.
This method is not an option when the engine is already assembled. If it is assembled you will need a tool like the one listed above which measures movement of the flywheel with feeler gauges.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Asleep@thewheel
Samba Member


Joined: December 13, 2015
Posts: 68
Location: Ridin' with Bob
Asleep@thewheel is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

If you havent the tools to measure endplay. How can you be rebuilding an engine? Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12452

Zundfolge1432 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

Good luck.

Last edited by Zundfolge1432 on Tue May 17, 2016 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
1968KdFWagen
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: Granville
1968KdFWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

Asleep@thewheel wrote:
If you havent the tools to measure endplay. How can you be rebuilding an engine? Shocked


Rebuilding an engine isn't dependent on one tool. There are other ways to determine endplay. Shocked

I did as ashman40 suggested before I sealed the case. I am simply wanting to verify for sure that I have the correct shims. I will be ordering the tool from Cip1.

Thanks for the supportive feedback from many of you.
_________________
Ian

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."

1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

1968KdFWagen wrote:
I did as ashman40 suggested before I sealed the case. I am simply wanting to verify for sure that I have the correct shims.

Ummm, I'm confused.
If you checked the end play while the crank was out of the case, what did you find? Did you confirm the shims you already have will give you 0.004" end play?
If this is not what you found then you need different shims? If the end play IS correct w/ your existing shims then are you just looking for a second way to check end play?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
TheStanfordWagen
Samba Member


Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 99
Location: Dresden, Ohio United States
TheStanfordWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
1968KdFWagen wrote:
I did as ashman40 suggested before I sealed the case. I am simply wanting to verify for sure that I have the correct shims.

Ummm, I'm confused.
If you checked the end play while the crank was out of the case, what did you find? Did you confirm the shims you already have will give you 0.004" end play?
If this is not what you found then you need different shims? If the end play IS correct w/ your existing shims then are you just looking for a second way to check end play?


I checked the end play between the bearing with the flywheel attached to the crank. I could fit the 0.004 feeler gauge with the shims and nothing larger. I am a little OCD and would just like a second way to confirm the end play.
_________________
1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
Solex 30 PICT-3
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

Well that sounds like all is well.

The good thing about checking the end play out of the case is that you know you are measuring the free play between the bearing and the crank/flywheel.

When you measure the flywheel movement with the crank/flywheel installed in the case, you can't always tell if the #1 bearing is moving in the case and this is increasing the measured play.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
1968KdFWagen
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: Granville
1968KdFWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

I took it to my friend, who was a VW dealer mechanic from 1965 to 1987. He used a dial indicator and we determined the proper shims needed. I ordered the tool for Cip1, in case I would need to do this again in the future. Thanks for all the help!
_________________
Ian

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."

1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

Getting confused again... Confused
If you measured 0.004" between the bearing and shims with the crank/flywheel assembled outside of the case. The endplay should be good (or very close to good).

What was the measured installed end play when your friend measured it using the dial indicator on the flywheel? Was it more or less than 0.004"? How much more/less? I would expect it to be very close (+/- 0.001") to the earlier measurement outside the case.


If the freeplay was MORE than 0.004" you need to be careful.
Your case has not been aligned bored so you are using new bearings on possibly worn bearing saddles. If the fit of the bearings in the saddles are not perfect then any additional free play between the case and the bearings will appear in addition to the 0.004" you measured while the crank was out of the case. You cannot "feel" a bearing that is only a few thousandths of an inch loose.

Picture this example:
    Crank + flywheel + shims have exactly 0.004" free play with the #1 thrust bearing.

    The #1 thrust bearing has 0.002" play between its thrust surface and the bearing saddle thrust face on the case.

    When you measure the assembled end play with the dial indicator on the flywheel you read 0.006" of movement (0.004" + 0.002").

    You replace one of the shims with one that is 0.002" thicker.

    You re-measure the end-play with the dial indicator on the flywheel and find 0.004". You are happy, but now there is actually only 0.002" free play between the #1 thrust bearing and the crank. Your bearing may fail prematurely because the tolerance is set too tightly.

_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
William69
Samba Member


Joined: January 17, 2016
Posts: 41
Location: Leadville, Colorado
William69 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

I have a 1972 type 3, assembled with flywheel installed, engine in car, had a lot of end play, pulled engine, installed Mic on flywheel, endplay was .068, removed flywheel thinking there where no shims, pulled out 3 equaling .030, a .009, .010 & a .011, even with 3 new 38mm (.015) I won't even be close to .004

Any suggestions,

Have everything to split the cases, plan on new rings, 1 head (need port for FI temp), new mains and if I have to, line bore and maybe a new balanced crank
_________________
Wild Willie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
1968KdFWagen
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2016
Posts: 47
Location: Granville
1968KdFWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

The Type 3 Engine have different shims than the Type 1 engine. If you are going to be at 0.015 with three new shims, I would say that something is definitely up inside the case.

Hopefully someone more knowledgable with Type 3 engines all come forward.

Best of luck.
_________________
Ian

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."

1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
William69
Samba Member


Joined: January 17, 2016
Posts: 41
Location: Leadville, Colorado
William69 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

I think you miss understood what I was trying to say, I found Shims (on line) 38mm which equals .015 each, using 3 of these new shims would be .045 or 1.14mm, my endplay measured with the flywheel on and a total of 3 (original) shims installed came out to .068 or 1.727mm which means with no shims on the end of the crank, total endplay is .098 or 2.489mm. I think I have some internal problems, spun bearing, bad cranks, not sure yet, will have to split the case. Read some post overseas where another builder is using 4 to 6 shims? not sure if that would work for VW though.
_________________
Wild Willie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
airschooled
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12686
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
airschooled is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

William69 wrote:
Read some post overseas where another builder is using 4 to 6 shims? not sure if that would work for VW though.


That there is what we call a slippery slope. So you have extra shims to take up the space? How can you ascertain that the oil film protection between shims is adequate at a 4,400 RPM up-shift now that you have less theoretical space for the oil to form a hydrodynamic film? Do you set your end play to .004" instead of .003" with four shims? .006" with six shims? Shocked Do you need to modify your connecting rod side clearance to protect against extra end play now required by your extra shims and extra film space? Now what about timing scatter due to increased end play? Pulley-to-tin clearance in the rear?

I don't like to mess with Volkswagen engineering. I like to fix the problem, not the symptom.

The ONLY way you're allowed to re-use shims without measuring is:
a) your old engine had .003" of end play immediately before you tore it down.
b) you are reusing your case without machining.
c) you are reusing your flywheel without machining.
d) you are reusing your bearings without machining.
e) you are reusing your crankshaft without machining.

Now if those are all true, why the hell are you "rebuilding" it??? Laughing

Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
William69
Samba Member


Joined: January 17, 2016
Posts: 41
Location: Leadville, Colorado
William69 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: End Play Shims Reply with quote

Just split the case, Endplay was to excessive, #2 main is stamped with U 1.0 std does this mean the case has been line bored or the crank has be ground? not sure how to upload a photo of the Main Bear?
_________________
Wild Willie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.