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1968KdFWagen Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2016 Posts: 47 Location: Granville
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:27 pm Post subject: End Play Shims |
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I am currently rebuilding a 1600 single port engine. The case didn't need lined bored (just all new bearings), the crank and camshaft were fine and reused. Would I need new shims to adjust the endplay or since nothing was changed but the bearings should they be fine to use? _________________ Ian
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."
1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544 |
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Billmullins Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2016 Posts: 1
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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Its possible the old shims will be fine. But its so easy to measure and be certain, why not do it and have peace of mind ?
Besides, how do you know if endplay was correct before ? |
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1968KdFWagen Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2016 Posts: 47 Location: Granville
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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Thats the thing, I haven't the tools to measure endplay. Are there any suggestions of as to how I could do it, without the tools? _________________ Ian
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."
1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544 |
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pistolpetecowboy Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014 Posts: 122 Location: Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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1968KdFWagen wrote: |
Thats the thing, I haven't the tools to measure endplay. Are there any suggestions of as to how I could do it, without the tools? |
You could make your own tool with some nuts, bolts, and a bit of welding but they're only $17 during May.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7095 _________________ 70 Beetle, 70 Beetle, 71 Beetle, 71 Super, 73 Super, 74 Beetle, 2000 Vintage Speedster, 2020 Jeep Renegade, 71 Squareback |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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1968KdFWagen wrote: |
Thats the thing, I haven't the tools to measure endplay. Are there any suggestions of as to how I could do it, without the tools? |
Is your engine still apart in pieces? Do you have a set of feeler gauges?
Assemble the crank + #1 bearing + 2 of the 3 shims + flywheel on your bench. Rest it on the flywheel with the crank up vertically.
Snug the gland nut tight but not "super tight" (50 ft-lbs is enough, no need for 200+ for this measurement).
The #1 bearing and shims will be a loose fit between the flywheel and the crank because one shim is missing. Slide your feeler gauges in between the bearing and the spacers until you find the thickest one that will slide in w/ resistance (stack the feeler gauges if needed). This is the gap you need to fill with the last shim but you will also be leaving 0.004" of endplay. So subtract 0.004" from your feeler gauge measurment and see if your 3rd shim is this thickness? If it is not, you need to order the proper size shim. When you install the correct thickness 3rd shim you have be left with the proper amount of endplay (0.004").
With the crank and flywheel out of the engine end-play can be this simple to measure.
This method is not an option when the engine is already assembled. If it is assembled you will need a tool like the one listed above which measures movement of the flywheel with feeler gauges. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Asleep@thewheel Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2015 Posts: 68 Location: Ridin' with Bob
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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If you havent the tools to measure endplay. How can you be rebuilding an engine? |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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Good luck.
Last edited by Zundfolge1432 on Tue May 17, 2016 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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1968KdFWagen Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2016 Posts: 47 Location: Granville
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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Asleep@thewheel wrote: |
If you havent the tools to measure endplay. How can you be rebuilding an engine? |
Rebuilding an engine isn't dependent on one tool. There are other ways to determine endplay.
I did as ashman40 suggested before I sealed the case. I am simply wanting to verify for sure that I have the correct shims. I will be ordering the tool from Cip1.
Thanks for the supportive feedback from many of you. _________________ Ian
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."
1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544 |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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1968KdFWagen wrote: |
I did as ashman40 suggested before I sealed the case. I am simply wanting to verify for sure that I have the correct shims. |
Ummm, I'm confused.
If you checked the end play while the crank was out of the case, what did you find? Did you confirm the shims you already have will give you 0.004" end play?
If this is not what you found then you need different shims? If the end play IS correct w/ your existing shims then are you just looking for a second way to check end play? _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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TheStanfordWagen Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013 Posts: 99 Location: Dresden, Ohio United States
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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ashman40 wrote: |
1968KdFWagen wrote: |
I did as ashman40 suggested before I sealed the case. I am simply wanting to verify for sure that I have the correct shims. |
Ummm, I'm confused.
If you checked the end play while the crank was out of the case, what did you find? Did you confirm the shims you already have will give you 0.004" end play?
If this is not what you found then you need different shims? If the end play IS correct w/ your existing shims then are you just looking for a second way to check end play? |
I checked the end play between the bearing with the flywheel attached to the crank. I could fit the 0.004 feeler gauge with the shims and nothing larger. I am a little OCD and would just like a second way to confirm the end play. _________________ 1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
Solex 30 PICT-3
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544 |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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Well that sounds like all is well.
The good thing about checking the end play out of the case is that you know you are measuring the free play between the bearing and the crank/flywheel.
When you measure the flywheel movement with the crank/flywheel installed in the case, you can't always tell if the #1 bearing is moving in the case and this is increasing the measured play. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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1968KdFWagen Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2016 Posts: 47 Location: Granville
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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I took it to my friend, who was a VW dealer mechanic from 1965 to 1987. He used a dial indicator and we determined the proper shims needed. I ordered the tool for Cip1, in case I would need to do this again in the future. Thanks for all the help! _________________ Ian
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."
1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544 |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:04 am Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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Getting confused again...
If you measured 0.004" between the bearing and shims with the crank/flywheel assembled outside of the case. The endplay should be good (or very close to good).
What was the measured installed end play when your friend measured it using the dial indicator on the flywheel? Was it more or less than 0.004"? How much more/less? I would expect it to be very close (+/- 0.001") to the earlier measurement outside the case.
If the freeplay was MORE than 0.004" you need to be careful.
Your case has not been aligned bored so you are using new bearings on possibly worn bearing saddles. If the fit of the bearings in the saddles are not perfect then any additional free play between the case and the bearings will appear in addition to the 0.004" you measured while the crank was out of the case. You cannot "feel" a bearing that is only a few thousandths of an inch loose.
Picture this example:
Crank + flywheel + shims have exactly 0.004" free play with the #1 thrust bearing.
The #1 thrust bearing has 0.002" play between its thrust surface and the bearing saddle thrust face on the case.
When you measure the assembled end play with the dial indicator on the flywheel you read 0.006" of movement (0.004" + 0.002").
You replace one of the shims with one that is 0.002" thicker.
You re-measure the end-play with the dial indicator on the flywheel and find 0.004". You are happy, but now there is actually only 0.002" free play between the #1 thrust bearing and the crank. Your bearing may fail prematurely because the tolerance is set too tightly. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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William69 Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2016 Posts: 41 Location: Leadville, Colorado
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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I have a 1972 type 3, assembled with flywheel installed, engine in car, had a lot of end play, pulled engine, installed Mic on flywheel, endplay was .068, removed flywheel thinking there where no shims, pulled out 3 equaling .030, a .009, .010 & a .011, even with 3 new 38mm (.015) I won't even be close to .004
Any suggestions,
Have everything to split the cases, plan on new rings, 1 head (need port for FI temp), new mains and if I have to, line bore and maybe a new balanced crank _________________ Wild Willie |
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1968KdFWagen Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2016 Posts: 47 Location: Granville
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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The Type 3 Engine have different shims than the Type 1 engine. If you are going to be at 0.015 with three new shims, I would say that something is definitely up inside the case.
Hopefully someone more knowledgable with Type 3 engines all come forward.
Best of luck. _________________ Ian
"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result."
1968 Type 1 - Royal Red --- Built: September, 1967
1600 Single Port Engine - F1950480 (VW Exchange) Made January 16th, 1970
113-905-205K
30 PICT-1
Fahrgest.-Nr. 118096544 |
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William69 Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2016 Posts: 41 Location: Leadville, Colorado
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:25 am Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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I think you miss understood what I was trying to say, I found Shims (on line) 38mm which equals .015 each, using 3 of these new shims would be .045 or 1.14mm, my endplay measured with the flywheel on and a total of 3 (original) shims installed came out to .068 or 1.727mm which means with no shims on the end of the crank, total endplay is .098 or 2.489mm. I think I have some internal problems, spun bearing, bad cranks, not sure yet, will have to split the case. Read some post overseas where another builder is using 4 to 6 shims? not sure if that would work for VW though. _________________ Wild Willie |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12686 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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William69 wrote: |
Read some post overseas where another builder is using 4 to 6 shims? not sure if that would work for VW though. |
That there is what we call a slippery slope. So you have extra shims to take up the space? How can you ascertain that the oil film protection between shims is adequate at a 4,400 RPM up-shift now that you have less theoretical space for the oil to form a hydrodynamic film? Do you set your end play to .004" instead of .003" with four shims? .006" with six shims? Do you need to modify your connecting rod side clearance to protect against extra end play now required by your extra shims and extra film space? Now what about timing scatter due to increased end play? Pulley-to-tin clearance in the rear?
I don't like to mess with Volkswagen engineering. I like to fix the problem, not the symptom.
The ONLY way you're allowed to re-use shims without measuring is:
a) your old engine had .003" of end play immediately before you tore it down.
b) you are reusing your case without machining.
c) you are reusing your flywheel without machining.
d) you are reusing your bearings without machining.
e) you are reusing your crankshaft without machining.
Now if those are all true, why the hell are you "rebuilding" it???
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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William69 Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2016 Posts: 41 Location: Leadville, Colorado
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: End Play Shims |
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Just split the case, Endplay was to excessive, #2 main is stamped with U 1.0 std does this mean the case has been line bored or the crank has be ground? not sure how to upload a photo of the Main Bear? _________________ Wild Willie |
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