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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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 Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 1:54 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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How would the Bosch Red coil ( 0 221 119 030 I think? The solid red body, like a "red" bosch blue basically) work with this guy? If I'm not mistaken they are supposed to be used with a ballast resistor, but I never bothered to measure the primary on the last one I had, as it was being used with a CDI module on my 61 (now wrecked) but I know it hit harder than a blue for sure. All the posted numbers on these seem all over the place...
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PumaVW79
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Joined: January 31, 2012
Posts: 487
Location: WGS84: 22.9083° S, 43.1964° W
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
| How would the Bosch Red coil ( 0 221 119 030 I think? The solid red body, like a "red" bosch blue basically) work with this guy? If I'm not mistaken they are supposed to be used with a ballast resistor, but I never bothered to measure the primary on the last one I had, as it was being used with a CDI module on my 61 (now wrecked) but I know it hit harder than a blue for sure. |
I've been using the KW Bosch (red) coil since 2010 on my 1600. I've bought it to use with one "made in backyard" ignition module (probably based on the transistors BD138 and BU208 or similar) that I purchased before.
The original idea was to save the working life o the points and to deliver a stronger spark to the spark plugs.
The seller said the red coil could be used without a ballast resistor so I've installed that way, it's worked without problems -- but the coil got really hot, untouchable by naked hands. He said that's not a problem, but I was worried about that much heat, then I added a .8 ohm ballast resistor as recommended by Bosch at the coil's label.
I didn't perceive any noticeable difference performance-wise, but the coil ran much cooler, only warm to the touch.
About two or three years ago, at a very hot Rio's summer day, the module failed suddenly during one trip. After pushing the car away to the road (with the help of some good guys who were on foot) I was able to disconnect the module and went back to the conventional ignition system.
Since then I haven't replaced the module and the ignition system is very strong and reliable. Last time I've adjusted the points is more than one year earlier -- recently I've measured the dwell angle and it's still on specs.
Ultimately, my conclusion is that those control modules (and point substitutes as well) are only unnecessary layers of complexity waiting for a failure (or not if you are luck). OK, the last sentence is valid for everything else, but I like to maintain the things as simple and efficient as possible.
But I strongly recommend the KW (red) Bosch coil with the informed resistor instead of the K (blue) , because of the stronger spark without the cost of premature wear of the other ignition components.
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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So, I had a chance to gut a wrecked Mk3 Cabrio of it's coil today for free. car was running when wrecked a few weeks ago, and was running yesterday until some folks came by and started yanking engine bits off, so I know the coil is good. I also grabbed the coil-to-distributor lead, and about a foot of the wiring pigtail. From what I can tell these coils are triggered by grounding out pin 2, and they seem to have their own ICM built into the mounting base. before i get all funky and hook it up, any ideas on how to adapt the wiring to the distributor? I have a foot or so of unterminated silicone taylor wire left from when I bought the spiro-pro wires for my engine, and just curious as to if i can get the terminals and boots separately, or if i need to buy a couple sets to cannibalize and kludge something together...
Here's the coil in question- If I'm not mistaken these were also used on the late mexican EFI engines...
Anybody familiar with how the mk3 VW stuff is triggered? from what I can see they are triggered with a ground signal, but not sure if it is from a pulldown from 12 or 5 volts at the ECU. This will end up triggered by the electronic points replacement module in my SVDA on my 1776.
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Frank Bassman
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012
Posts: 893
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:43 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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I was looking into systems like the above, kinda pricy.
But I'd love to experiment with one.
Anyway TFI UPDATE.
My Motorcraft grey module from a late 80's ford truck finally started to fail.
It did not fail absolutely, but I was experiencing a miss at higher RPM, as if the coil was going bad. Being an auto zone cole I changed it for a known good bosch blue and miss persisted. Had a new spare module from AutoZone (with a lifetime REPLACEMENT warranty) in the glovebox, swapped it. No more miss.
So, I guess these modules CAN go bad without failing completely. I only experienced this at higher RPM with a firm press on accelerator, if I revved up with light throttle, miss didn't show. I mean, with an egg under my foot so to speak.
This was an original module, probably factory to that truck and while I didn't read the odometer it was probably well above 150 k, this looked like a work truck that was used a lot... still it lasted ME a good 50,000 miles before it did this last week!
Food for thought.
For the record, that damn AutoZone coil produces a much stronger zap than the blue bosch... I found out the fun way 
-Frank |
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vamram 
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Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7300
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:42 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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| Frank Bassman wrote: |
For the record, that damn AutoZone coil produces a much stronger zap than the blue bosch... I found out the fun way
-Frank |
Hey Frank - left you burn marks? Is that Autozone one the silver coil?
- Victor
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Frank Bassman
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Joined: July 01, 2012
Posts: 893
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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Hey Victor, no no burn marks but it was quite a strong shock, more than the blue bosch one I keep as a spare.
It's a black replacement oil filled shock "for use with external resistor."
Has 1.8 ohm primary and 9.5k ohm secondary.
Not sure what the part number is. Been running this coil for quite a while now, gets toasty but never has failed!
-Frank |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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| Frank Bassman wrote: |
Hey Victor, no no burn marks but it was quite a strong shock, more than the blue bosch one I keep as a spare.
It's a black replacement oil filled shock "for use with external resistor."
Has 1.8 ohm primary and 9.5k ohm secondary.
Not sure what the part number is. Been running this coil for quite a while now, gets toasty but never has failed!
-Frank |
I've used one of those before. Black one made by wells? I think if you ask for a coil for a mexican 1500 beetle they pull that up, I forget the numbers off of it. Good coil.
In similar news, my Bosch Blue decided to die on me a month ago (intermittent misfire that got progressively worse. A buddy gave me his MSD blaster and it has been running wonderfully.
Also, the vacuum can on my SVDA decided to fail last week, so I begrudgingly swapped in the spare 009 I keep in the trunk. after fooling with it for nearly an hour, I figured out that apparently the green points replacement module in these Kuhltek SVDA's will not fit (will not fit over the lobes of the shaft) an original German 009. I clipped the condensor wire, and set the points, installed the 009, and it fired right up.
I have not encountered any issues with the TFI module at all, and think it's a great addition, however I have been thinking of buying a Crane Cams optical wheel pickup from a good friend, and seeing how they play together. As I understand it the Crane module has its own ignition driver internally that would render the TFI redundant.
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Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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Back to the use of the 4-pin GM HEI module, I hear these may have issues at low battery voltages? I have been doing a bit of research on discrete ignition amplifier circuits (using darlingtons or IGBT's that are used in modern coil drivers) and stumbled across this page, linked from one of the JalopyJournal TFI discussions-
http://www.geocities.ws/loudgpz/GPZheiModForPoints.html
It incorporates a transistor to flip the phase of the trigger (so simple, why didn't I think of that?) and supposedly works with points well. Of course, I would change a few circuit values and get the current through the points up a bit for that handy self-cleaning effect a few hundred milliamps can provide. Definitely need to limit voltage into the HEI trigger input for long term use I would imagine. I might yank a module to play with at some point. I like the idea of the HEI module, as it's a bit easier to mount to the inside of a sealed aluminum box, and mount off to the side with the electronics inside, and could have some fins milled in to the sides of the box like the MSD style boxes...
Another HEI discussion-
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,741056,741066
And here-
http://www.motoscrubs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=429
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26781
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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Check out the points bounce filter of CDI boxes search "delta mark 10"
It's a bit beyond me, just a bit. Maybe you can understand it.
If you were going to build a circuit. It might aw well do something useful, besides just being a GM fan rather than a ford fan.
On the inside the toyota and GM and ford modules look very much the same and have similar current capabilities, only difference IMO is the trigger systems, and quality, which varies. yeah quality always varies, you can get the cheap one, or the dealer one, or go to napa, or one with a MSD sticker on it which is 20% more power!!! Just from the sticker alone |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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| modok wrote: |
Check out the points bounce filter of CDI boxes search "delta mark 10"
It's a bit beyond me, just a bit. Maybe you can understand it.
If you were going to build a circuit. It might aw well do something useful, besides just being a GM fan rather than a ford fan.
On the inside the toyota and GM and ford modules look very much the same and have similar current capabilities, only difference IMO is the trigger systems, and quality, which varies. yeah quality always varies, you can get the cheap one, or the dealer one, or go to napa, or one with a MSD sticker on it which is 20% more power!!! Just from the sticker alone |
I would love one of those originals one day, cool boxes for sure.
Interstingly, the circuitry for those is very similar to the CDI circuits I've built up on my own 
Mine used IGBT transistors instead of SCR's but the principles are very similar. "There is nothing new under the sun" as they say. Would be pretty straightforward to cut out the step-up (high voltage) portion of the circuit, soup it up with modern parts and practice, and make a handy, DIY friendly version of something that performs as well or better than either the TFI or HEI modules. I was digging through datasheets this morning on a few interesting ignition controller IC's, but unfortunately the simple/easy to implement ones are mostly obsolete, unless you want to have expensive metal-clad PCB's made to accommodate weird surface-mount power chips...
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26781
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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I believe it. I found some nice trigger amplifiers for VR sensors, which is WAY better than what was on a GM module, but for points/hall, not a lot of new stuff out there.
There is a difference with how "well" this or that reads the point signal.
Even though the TFI is not intended to work with it, it does work very well, somehow. Interestingly, my 8680 MSD timing control that says it does work with points actually is not as good as the TFI, it is more easily confused by a dirty signal, and gets really confused when they bounce.
MSD left out the filter circuit and dummy load! cam you believe it? Stupid  And for further irony, it does trigger A TFI perfect, tho of course the instructions say it only works with MSD brand components.
Not a lot of specs out there, just have to hook this stuff up and try it.
I have a delta mark 10b.
It does work nice, but I would not be opposed to selling it. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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| modok wrote: |
I believe it. I found some nice trigger amplifiers for VR sensors, which is WAY better than what was on a GM module, but for points/hall, not a lot of new stuff out there.
There is a difference with how "well" this or that reads the point signal.
Even though the TFI is not intended to work with it, it does work very well, somehow. Interestingly, my 8680 MSD timing control that says it does work with points actually is not as good as the TFI, it is more easily confused by a dirty signal, and gets really confused when they bounce.
MSD left out the filter circuit and dummy load! cam you believe it? Stupid And for further irony, it does trigger A TFI perfect, tho of course the instructions say it only works with MSD brand components.
Not a lot of specs out there, just have to hook this stuff up and try it.
I have a delta mark 10b.
It does work nice, but I would not be opposed to selling it. |
I'm a cheap bastard that bides my time- you'd be offended by what I'd offer you for it
I always find interesting stuff like that at yard sales, flea markets, swap meets, etc. Makes it hard to justify spending good money on something like that, especially when I'm building my own from time to time. What I really want is one of the old Tung-Sol CDI modules, but they are always either thrashed or prohibiting in price.
It is funny how much of the MSD gear works perfectly in places it says it shouldn't. The really nice thing about MSD (at least for the checkbook hot-rodders) is that they have so many different harnesses to make it all drop-in, connect, adjust, and go. I honestly think that's the main reason they are still so popular (other than the name) considering there are better things out there historically. Jacob's, Mallory, etc were great, but where are they now? 
Crap, I mentioned Jacob's ignition- Scott Novak will be here any minute, better run 
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26781
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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MSD ate Mallory
Petronix ate Compufire
Yes it's a shame the crappier company always wins.....somehow |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:59 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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TFI module update- over 15,000 trouble free miles. Since I don't run duals anymore (for the time being) I relocated the module up to the unused diagnosis port mounting holes, and had just enough wire on the plug to reach without strain. This whole time it's been running without a dummy load or condensor, and seems to do just fine. The heatsink is hot but not any hotter than would be uncomfortable to hold, even firing the MSD blaster coil. The coil sure seems happy, it's just warm even after an hour on the freeway doing 75MPH. One of these days I'll pull a junkyard module that still has the factory heatsink, just so it looks cleaner. Like that 36 horse cast iron SVDA? It works awesome with the 34Pict-3 by the way
I've got a Tiger 500 CDI box coming soon so the TFI will end up on the shelf soon though... assuming the CDI doesn't have any issues.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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Frank Bassman
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012
Posts: 893
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:58 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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Nice! I keep racking up the miles on mine too. Well, mine lasted about as long as yours until it started cutting out at about 4k rpm. No sudden failure though. Now I run an autozone one with lifetime replacement warranty and a NOS set of bosch points. Gonna hook up a pertronix to trigger the TFI soon and see how that goes. My autozone coil geta HOT but no failure yet. (Plugs at 0.028)
That center section you run now is... CB?
And that carb, no name german or empi?
You missing the performance or are you enjoying the nice and even idle? I run single dual bbls too!
Great update man.
-Frank |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:22 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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Stock size VW center section, Mexican Bocar carburetor, idle is acceptable, hard to get it clean under 1000RPM, but it works just fine. I don't notice a terrible difference in midrange power, but accelerating off from a dead stop you can feel the difference for sure, although top end isn't terribly different. It's a torque monster for sure though! Very nice for a daily driver but it would be obviously better with duals. Once I get my kadrons back they are going back on, but I would love a set of IDF webers on here. As it sits I can average a nice ~30MPG without changing my driving style. If I go grandma style it'll do 34-35MPG.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:22 am Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
Like that 36 horse cast iron SVDA? It works awesome with the 34Pict-3 by the way
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Yes! It makes me happy to to it in there!
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[email protected]
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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While looking for a TFI found this as a replacement. Any thoughts?
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26781
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: TFI Ignition Control Module w/stock points/distributor trigger |
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The dura-spark is a lot like an overgrown HEI module.
At the time they were one of the more powerful ignition systems around, probably over 8 amps
They were rather expensive also.
One would cost some 150$ or so in today's dollars, but I've seen them listed for cheap a few times.
Since 95% of the vehicles that use them are probably dead now, the auto parts stores might be having a fire sale, getting rid of dead inventory. |
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