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Fuel filler Door
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 2:53 am    Post subject: Fuel filler Door Reply with quote

Does anyone have fische/parts diagram for the fuel filler door? Currently, my door has no spring on it or any type of latching mechanism to keep door shut. All I see is a slot on the car fender. There is a pull cable on the passenger side, but yanking it is useless. Any help would be appreciated. - Rom
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel filler Door Reply with quote

Yes...but the fiche is only for location and part #. It has "0" useful detail.

The part # for the cable assembly is 411 821 241.

It is similar enough to the type 3 part 311 821 241.....that if distant memory serves.....you can use the GUTS only from the type 3 cable assembly. If memory serves....the cable sheath and mounting flange for the firewall/fender well are different between them mainly in angle of the flange.

When hou remove the two mounting screws......you will find that the cable and latch assembly are still there.....but usually the latch tooth is snapped off.
I'm
It is a pot metal. Its not that its not strong enough. What happens.....is usually one of three things:

1. The little rectangular lid from the latch mechanism which is held on by four indentations kind of like the coved of a metal relay.......may be missing. If it is.....water and grit from spray from the wheels has filled the recess ine the mechanism. ..gumming it up and corroding it. So when you pull hard to open.....the latch tooth is jammed and snaps off.

2. The little rectangular lid is still on.....but has leaked over time and caused the same problem above.

3. The cable sheath over time has been cracked or abraded....leaked and froze the cable. This rarely causes the latch tooth to snap off.....but causes someone to usually take a screwdriver to the filler flap....which can snap the latch finger.

I will take some photos. But.....having had to replace at least five of these in a five year period living in rainy,climates......I can tell you that you must to this correctly if you dont eant to be doing this again.

You must make sure the cable sheath has no cracks or leaks. Permatex ultra RTV works fine. You need to clean out the cable sheath and the lityle mechanism hinge box where the latch finger is.
Lube the cable sheath with ATF.....ONLY......nothing else works like this for cable. I lubed mine 20 years ago and its still smooth as glass. Then pack the mechanism box with super lube synthetic grease.....or at worst....vaseline . Do not use any kind of normal grease or it will be too tacky in cold weather and once the flap opens.....it stays open ulness you move the latch by hand.
Finally...install the little rectangular lid......and re crimp the four points....and seal it with Permatex Ultra.

Then.....clean the body under the fender, put RTV on it....and seal the little box to the body. You dont want water getting to the pivot pin for the latch. Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel filler Door Reply with quote

This is great info. Hard to discern without a visual. I'll post some pics too.
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1978 SB Vert
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel filler Door Reply with quote

OK…here is the repair ..or repair(s) actually…for the cable. As with many things this cable pull has a small flaw….or pair of flaws.

1. The body of the flap assembly…and most importantly the little rectangular cover for the cable linkage…. is made of the same magnesium alloy as say…the windshield wiper gearbox assembly. It has a few corrosion issues.

2. Its only water tight based upon how well the little lid is crimped on. You can imagine that under the fender this assembly is subjected to water, salt, grit etc.

If it leaks…it gets gummed up inside….and can suffer from lack of lubricant at the pivot point and break and worse….as the indentations that hold the little rectangular lid on corrode and the lid gets loose.….if it was not leaking before…it will be now…and worse yet…the little rectangular lid gets loose enough that it falls off….causing…..

3. When the lid falls off…the spring inside that keeps the lever/latch closed in the slot in the gas flap lid….will pop forward …as you will see in the pictures…..causing it to not release the flap no matter how hard you pull because there may not be enough slack in the cable. This is rare but happens.
So….to do this correctly….meaning make sure it works…is sealed….and protected ….so that it does not happen again….because these parts will be harder and harder to find and fix in the future….you need to take the cable assembly completely out of the car.

Since your locking lever is broken off….you can source one from a type 3 assembly. A type 1 cable assembly has no parts you can use as you can see at this link.
https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111809939c

Here is an NOS type 3 assembly..…which will not fit your car because the lengths between the red lines and green lines are very different.

http://www.theundergroundgarage.com/products/311-8...type-3-nos

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the 411/412….the distance between the red lines is 2”and 15/16” and the distance between the green lines is 24” and ¼”.

By the way…Airhead parts has used type 3 assemblies for about $45 http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/used-vw-body-parts-bug-fender

But….the head/latch box on the left end is the same part. You can remove the latch mechanism, spring and lid and use those parts to rebuild yours.

The fact that the 411/412 cable length is unique….and pieces type 3 parts that are either used or NOS are your only options….means you need to do this correctly and completely…or you will suffer this again and may have no options at some point.

So…..here are the pictures:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What is missing or broken off is that pivot lever or tang that is just above the lower screw hole.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a view from the other direction. The rectangular cover is missing from this one. You can clearly see the grease and grit packed into this, the steel ball crimped onto the end of the cable and the little cross shaft that is integral to the locking pivot lever.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can clearly see here how close the flange on the left which bolts to the inner fender wall…is to the operating end as compared to the type 3.

By the way…there is a rubber seal under that flange. Without it you will leak water into the trunk and rust out the firewall. You can use 1/16” or 3/32” sheet Buna or Silicone rubber to cut a seal that stays under the rolled edge. Glue it in on both sides with Permatex Ultra…and it will look factory and NEVER leak again.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the backside.

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In this close up…the red arrows show the two….sorry I originally remembered four but there are only two…indentations or peen marks that are all that hold the lid on this little box. The green arrow shows the cast in ledge where the lid sits and must seal.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Even if there were no issues with water, grease and grit….you can see from these two pictures that without the lid to act as a positive stop for the cable end of the lever inside…..the lever pivots/rotates too far. Once this happens it can be very difficult to unlock the lid.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a clearer view of the leverage and seal flange on the inner fender wall. The screws for it are inside of the trunk.

Ok…once you have a type 3 part to tear apart….you need to take the cable out of the sheath. You should do this either way so you can fully clean everything out, properly lube and reassemble.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the crimped on stop at the handle end of the cable inside of the car.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In this detail photo…you can see that you need to take a Dremel tool with thin cut-off wheels..…best…or sharp triangular file…ok….and make a cut line on each side of this crimped on steel stop pellet. Make the cuts 180* apart down to or very close to the wire. A quick pull with Vise-Grip pliers should be enough.

Do NOT…just clip the end of the cable off. There may or may not be enough spare cable to do this.

You can now remove the cable from the tube from the flap end. The old pivot and spring pop right out.

Clean the cable sheath and pivot box out with Berrymans chemtool carb cleaner. Dry well, lube with ATF….insert cable and work it. Then pack the pivot box with Super lube synthetic grease. Install the rectangular cover. Stake it back in in several places. Seal with High Temp RTV.

To make sure the pivot stays retracted while you are working on the lid…grip the cable from the handle end…lightly…with vise grips to keep it under tension.

To replace the crimped on stop on the handle end….go down to Home Depot and buy a foot of cheap steel rod that is the same diameter. Cut a piece about 3/8” long and mount lightly in a vise. You want to start with a piece longer than you need so you have something to hold onto.

Then with an appropriate sized drill bit very slightly larger than the wire….and steady hand…..and drill a hole through the rod center.
Then…slide it onto the wire/cable….you are making a ferrule…..and crimp it on hard with Vise Grips.
You are now done.
Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuel filler Door Reply with quote

By the way. ....I forgot.....the spring for the gas flap is part #111 809 931 A. Its a type 1 part.

I find listings for 111 809 931 U..which fits:
type 1 convertible 73-79,
1968 standard beetle
beetle 73-79 and super beetle
1968 ghia.

Then I find 111 809 931 AU......which lists:
Convertible beetle 1969-1972
1969-1974 ghia
1969-72 super beetle.

I have no idea what the difference is in the two springs or why the second one has two letter codes.

I think the late type 3 uses the same part # spring with the A letter code as type 4.
Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel filler Door Reply with quote

Man, this detailed research is incredible Ray. Thanks for taking the time out to explain.

One final question prior to starting: I cannot tell if my fuel door needs replacement or just a spring. Currently, there is no spring mechanism on it to have it pop open. I dont have a point of reference to see how/where spring seats.

If its just a spring, any suggestions where I could get one?
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Fuel filler Door Reply with quote

Sorry...meant to post these.

The spring is a type 1 part #. It is 111 809 931 A.
The flap is unique to type 4 and is part # 411 821 206.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-111-809-931

https://www.karmannghia.com/products.asp?idCategory=823

KGPR has 111 809 931 AU and 111 809 931

I don't know exactly what the "A" part of the number difference is.

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The door

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Close up of the other angle

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This is what it would look like mounted on the fender when its open

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This is the position of the hinge plate when its closed and locked

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Forward edge view of the hinge plate when open and closed

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To remove the spring, squeeze and.....

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pull the legs out of the holes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Flop the spring back

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Using a screwdriver...bigger than this one...twist under the lip of the steel roll area and bend the roll enough to remove the spring.
DO NOT...lever back against the hinge pin/axle or you will bend it.

After installing the spring...use a wood dowel to tap the roll clamp back down. make sure the spring rotates and is not pinned by the roll clamp.

If you get in a pinch for a spring let me know. I should have a couple of spares. Ray
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