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Bermwolf
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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 Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:21 pm Post subject: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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I am currently about 75% done with my 1974 standard rebuild. Just got the engine in(love the exhaust look)
http://imgur.com/a/6xuZS
I completely replaced the wiring with a 1972 harness, modified for an alternator and using a hard start relay. Today when I went to attach a battery and start stuff for the first time, disaster.
Currently the following happens
1:No issues when battery attached and key is out of ignition. We let it sit for 30 minutes and nothing got hot.
2:When you turn the key to "on" the hazards start flashing. The rear tail lights flash and the clicker for the hazards run. There is no way to disable this.
3:The windshield wiper works(only in 1 speed but I know why)
4:The lights do not turn on when you activate the switch.
5:Pressing the brake pedal activates the brake lights
6:Turning the key does not activate the starter.
I am trying to get some advice on where I can start troubleshooting. I am a little worried I have wired this thing 100% backwards at the fuse block. It would be super helpful to get some confirmation that I read the diagram properly.
Any additional troubleshooting tips would be great. I have a multimeter and a test light but wiring is one of the few things I stink at  [/url]
Last edited by Bermwolf on Sun May 29, 2016 8:10 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
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Bermwolf
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| Bad tags, I couldnt see what I said |
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Bermwolf
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| Bermwolf wrote: |
I am currently about 75% done with my 1974 standard rebuild. Just got the engine in(love the exhaust look)
I completely replaced the wiring with a 1972 harness, modified for an alternator and using a hard start relay. Today when I went to attach a battery and start stuff for the first time, disaster.
Currently the following happens
1:No issues when battery attached and key is out of ignition. We let it sit for 30 minutes and nothing got hot.
2:When you turn the key to "on" the hazards start flashing. The rear tail lights flash and the clicker for the hazards run. There is no way to disable this.
3:The windshield wiper works(only in 1 speed but I know why)
4:The lights do not turn on when you activate the switch.
5:Pressing the brake pedal activates the brake lights
6:Turning the key does not activate the starter.
I am trying to get some advice on where I can start troubleshooting. I am a little worried I have wired this thing 100% backwards at the fuse block. It would be super helpful to get some confirmation that I read the diagram properly.
Any additional troubleshooting tips would be great. I have a multimeter and a test light but wiring is one of the few things I stink at
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Did you type using invisible print? I only saw your text when I hit "Quote". |
Bad tags! crazy formatting |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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So we should start with a common wiring diagram. You mentioned using a '72 harness so we should use the '72 wiring diagram as a guide:
Notice the fuse box has thick black lines along the left side that bridge fuses together. This is the INPUT side of the fuse box and represents the brass bars that connect pairs of fuses together. It is important that you connect the input wires to the input side of the fuse box. On this side, one wire can power multiple fuses.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
Currently the following happens
2:When you turn the key to "on" the hazards start flashing. The rear tail lights flash and the clicker for the hazards run. There is no way to disable this. |
Did you try removing the #8 & #12 fuse. These two fuses power the E-Flasher and the turn signals. If removing both of these does not disable the flashing lights you have miswired the fuse box.
Trace the two wires (red and green) from the E-Flasher switch to the fuse box. These should connect to the OUTPUT side of the fuse box at fuse #8 and #12, respectively.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
| 4:The lights do not turn on when you activate the switch. |
Trace the red #30 wire from the headlight switch back to the fuse box, It should connect to the INPUT (yes, INPUT side) of fuse #7. Here it gets a constant 12v source. This red wire only powers the parking lights. The #58 output from the headlight switch runs to the fuse box where it powers fuses #1 & #2.
The headlights are powered by the black/yellow wire from the ignition switch. This should run from the ignition switch to the "X" terminal of the headlight switch. The output from the headlight switch (#56) runs to the headlight dimmer relay. The two outputs from the dimmer relay run to the fuse box where each wire powers a pair of fuses each.
In both cases above, the circuits are fused AFTER the switch so be sure to disconnect the battery before doing any work and double check that the connections before the fuses are not grounding out. There is no protection of the wires before the fuses. They will get hot and melt wires until the wires separate... or the car goes up in flames.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
| 6:Turning the key does not activate the starter. |
This is controlled by the red/black wire at the ignition switch. Test this at the connector at the bottom of the steering column housing. You should find 12v on this red/black wire when the ignition switch is turned to the START position.
If you find 12v at the ignition switch, move to the junction under the rear seat. Find the #50 wire just before it exits at the rear next to the center tunnel. There is a junction here, or you may have your hard start relay under the rear seat. Test for 12v here and see if the voltage is making it all the way back here. The HSR should click when energized. Is the relay working when you turn the ignition to START? Is the HSR properly grounded? The #50 wire from the ignition should connect to either the #85 or #86 terminals on the HSR. The other terminal is connected to ground. The power source (battery) is normally connected to #30 and the output from #87 goes to the starter solenoid #50 terminal.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Bermwolf
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Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
So we should start with a common wiring diagram. You mentioned using a '72 harness so we should use the '72 wiring diagram as a guide:
Notice the fuse box has thick black lines along the left side that bridge fuses together. This is the INPUT side of the fuse box and represents the brass bars that connect pairs of fuses together. It is important that you connect the input wires to the input side of the fuse box. On this side, one wire can power multiple fuses.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
Currently the following happens
2:When you turn the key to "on" the hazards start flashing. The rear tail lights flash and the clicker for the hazards run. There is no way to disable this. |
Did you try removing the #8 & #12 fuse. These two fuses power the E-Flasher and the turn signals. If removing both of these does not disable the flashing lights you have miswired the fuse box.
Trace the two wires (red and green) from the E-Flasher switch to the fuse box. These should connect to the OUTPUT side of the fuse box at fuse #8 and #12, respectively.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
| 4:The lights do not turn on when you activate the switch. |
Trace the red #30 wire from the headlight switch back to the fuse box, It should connect to the INPUT (yes, INPUT side) of fuse #7. Here it gets a constant 12v source. This red wire only powers the parking lights. The #58 output from the headlight switch runs to the fuse box where it powers fuses #1 & #2.
The headlights are powered by the black/yellow wire from the ignition switch. This should run from the ignition switch to the "X" terminal of the headlight switch. The output from the headlight switch (#56) runs to the headlight dimmer relay. The two outputs from the dimmer relay run to the fuse box where each wire powers a pair of fuses each.
In both cases above, the circuits are fused AFTER the switch so be sure to disconnect the battery before doing any work and double check that the connections before the fuses are not grounding out. There is no protection of the wires before the fuses. They will get hot and melt wires until the wires separate... or the car goes up in flames.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
| 6:Turning the key does not activate the starter. |
This is controlled by the red/black wire at the ignition switch. Test this at the connector at the bottom of the steering column housing. You should find 12v on this red/black wire when the ignition switch is turned to the START position.
If you find 12v at the ignition switch, move to the junction under the rear seat. Find the #50 wire just before it exits at the rear next to the center tunnel. There is a junction here, or you may have your hard start relay under the rear seat. Test for 12v here and see if the voltage is making it all the way back here. The HSR should click when energized. Is the relay working when you turn the ignition to START? Is the HSR properly grounded? The #50 wire from the ignition should connect to either the #85 or #86 terminals on the HSR. The other terminal is connected to ground. The power source (battery) is normally connected to #30 and the output from #87 goes to the starter solenoid #50 terminal. |
This was super helpful. I will go back and try these suggestions.
I did find that the starter runs if I hotwire the starter switch with a button, which leads me to believe the eletrical component in the lock cylinder is broken. No big deal, parts ordered.
One Item I am very confused about is the connection between fuses 7,8,9. I JUST realized there is a difference between my fuse box and the one in this diagram. My fuse box does NOT connect 7,8,9 together in a three way connection. This explained why my lights werent working because + was connected to fuse 7 which wasnt receiving power.
I moved the wiring for + to lighting from fuse 7 to fuse 8. Think this is okay or should I create a small jump to link 7 and 8? |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:05 am Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| Bermwolf wrote: |
This was super helpful. I will go back and try these suggestions.
I did find that the starter runs if I hotwire the starter switch with a button, which leads me to believe the eletrical component in the lock cylinder is broken. No big deal, parts ordered. |
It is common for ignition switch internal contacts for the starter circuit (#50)to get "burnt" over time. As a preventative step, you can add a Hard Start Relay under the rear seat. This will reduce the current thru the ignition switch.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
One Item I am very confused about is the connection between fuses 7,8,9. I JUST realized there is a difference between my fuse box and the one in this diagram. My fuse box does NOT connect 7,8,9 together in a three way connection. This explained why my lights werent working because + was connected to fuse 7 which wasnt receiving power.
I moved the wiring for + to lighting from fuse 7 to fuse 8. Think this is okay or should I create a small jump to link 7 and 8? |
Yeah, this is one of the differences. The 3-way bridge for fuses 7-9 is a '72-only feature. Moving the wires to fuse 8 or 9 is fine. This is what VW did for '73~.
Your idea of jumpering fuse 7 to either fuse 8 or 9 is also fine. Optionally, you would wire fuse 7 to fuse 11 or 12 and then it will be powered from the ignition switch instead of constant 12v.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Bermwolf
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Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| It is common for ignition switch internal contacts for the starter circuit (#50)to get "burnt" over time. As a preventative step, you can add a Hard Start Relay under the rear seat. This will reduce the current thru the ignition switch. |
I have installed a hard start relay. The issue is that the car came with a start button and the switch is already worn out. No big deal, Ill replace the switch and the hard start relay should keep everything happy.
| ashman40 wrote: |
Yeah, this is one of the differences. The 3-way bridge for fuses 7-9 is a '72-only feature. Moving the wires to fuse 8 or 9 is fine. This is what VW did for '73~.
Your idea of jumpering fuse 7 to either fuse 8 or 9 is also fine. Optionally, you would wire fuse 7 to fuse 11 or 12 and then it will be powered from the ignition switch instead of constant 12v. |
Thanks for the heads up, I will test for 12V on 11 and 12 and then likely wire it up that way. I also need to run power to an electric fuel pump, so maybe I can connect my fuel pump to 11 or 12 as well.
In wiring power to fuse 7, what is the proper side of the fuse to add power to? Should I jump from input to input and then add the wire for the lights to the output side of the fuse box? Just want to make sure I have a fuze in the mix. |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| Bermwolf wrote: |
| Thanks for the heads up, I will test for 12V on 11 and 12 and then likely wire it up that way. I also need to run power to an electric fuel pump, so maybe I can connect my fuel pump to 11 or 12 as well. |
For a fuel pump, you may want to consider a relay that will shut off the pump when the oil light is ON (grounded). This acts like a kill switch when the engine dies and prevents the fuel pump from running after an accident. I found this diagram which is elegant and simple:
The relay is a common Bosch-style SPDT relay. The relay is only ON when both the ignition switch and the OIL light are ON (OIL light grounded at the oil pressure switch). When the relay is ON (powered), power to the fuel pump is routed to only the bypass switch. By pressing this momentary bypass switch you can energize the fuel pump momentarily to manually fill the carb fuel bowl. Once the bowl has enough fuel to start the engine you can release the bypass switch. The bypass is only needed when your fuel bowl runs completely dry.
The fuel pump is powered when the relay is OFF. If the OIL light is out (engine running) the relay turns OFF and power from the ignition switch is passed to the fuel pump directly. The relay stops drawing power.
When the ignition switch is turned OFF power is completely removed from the fuel pump and the relay.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
| In wiring power to fuse 7, what is the proper side of the fuse to add power to? Should I jump from input to input and then add the wire for the lights to the output side of the fuse box? Just want to make sure I have a fuze in the mix. |
For consistency, you only want power entering from the INPUT side of the fuse box.
You do realize the parking light circuit is fused. But VW chose to add the fuse later in the circuit. It protects the wiring to the lights and the parking lights themselves. It does not protect the headlight switch.
The same applies for the black/yellow (X) circuit that powers the headlights. The headlight switch and dimmer relay are NOT protected. The fuses come AFTER the dimmer relay and protect the wiring to the headlights and the headlights themselves.
So you don't need to pass the ;ight circuit thru fuse #7. Just power the headlight switch #30 from the INPUT side of fuse #8 or #9.
Is it better to add a fuse to protect the headlight switch? Not necessarily. Both the headlights and parking lights are powered in pairs with separate fuses for left and right sides. If you have a short that blows one fuse, the other fuse remains and you still have partial headlights or partial parking lights and you can continue down the road.
If you add a fuse upstream of the headlight switch and it blows... you have no lights!
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Bermwolf
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Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:34 am Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| Bermwolf wrote: |
| Thanks for the heads up, I will test for 12V on 11 and 12 and then likely wire it up that way. I also need to run power to an electric fuel pump, so maybe I can connect my fuel pump to 11 or 12 as well. |
For a fuel pump, you may want to consider a relay that will shut off the pump when the oil light is ON (grounded). This acts like a kill switch when the engine dies and prevents the fuel pump from running after an accident. I found this diagram which is elegant and simple:
The relay is a common Bosch-style SPDT relay. The relay is only ON when both the ignition switch and the OIL light are ON (OIL light grounded at the oil pressure switch). When the relay is ON (powered), power to the fuel pump is routed to only the bypass switch. By pressing this momentary bypass switch you can energize the fuel pump momentarily to manually fill the carb fuel bowl. Once the bowl has enough fuel to start the engine you can release the bypass switch. The bypass is only needed when your fuel bowl runs completely dry.
The fuel pump is powered when the relay is OFF. If the OIL light is out (engine running) the relay turns OFF and power from the ignition switch is passed to the fuel pump directly. The relay stops drawing power.
When the ignition switch is turned OFF power is completely removed from the fuel pump and the relay.
| Bermwolf wrote: |
| In wiring power to fuse 7, what is the proper side of the fuse to add power to? Should I jump from input to input and then add the wire for the lights to the output side of the fuse box? Just want to make sure I have a fuze in the mix. |
For consistency, you only want power entering from the INPUT side of the fuse box.
You do realize the parking light circuit is fused. But VW chose to add the fuse later in the circuit. It protects the wiring to the lights and the parking lights themselves. It does not protect the headlight switch.
The same applies for the black/yellow (X) circuit that powers the headlights. The headlight switch and dimmer relay are NOT protected. The fuses come AFTER the dimmer relay and protect the wiring to the headlights and the headlights themselves.
So you don't need to pass the ;ight circuit thru fuse #7. Just power the headlight switch #30 from the INPUT side of fuse #8 or #9.
Is it better to add a fuse to protect the headlight switch? Not necessarily. Both the headlights and parking lights are powered in pairs with separate fuses for left and right sides. If you have a short that blows one fuse, the other fuse remains and you still have partial headlights or partial parking lights and you can continue down the road.
If you add a fuse upstream of the headlight switch and it blows... you have no lights! |
The fuel pump diagram is helpful, though I will have to think about adding the relay and bypass to prime the carbs. I know the first time I start this thing it is going to be a massive pain :/
Wiring the lights should be easy. I will do what you suggested. I am waiting on a new key and ignition set so that I can properly repair the wiring at the key. Once I have that I will work on all of these things at once.
Still dont know why my hazards come on all the time  |
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Bermwolf
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Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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So I was finally able to get a second pair of hands and install my fuel pump, gas tank, and filler installed. I decided not to use the relay because I was worried about the fuel pump shutting off if I hit low oil pressure. This can always be changed later.
Moral of the story, CHECK YOUR FIRING ORDER. battled the thing for an hour before I realized I had the order for 1 and 2 wrong.
Engine starts and idles, next steps is to figure out why my clutch doesnt disengage.
Question: When adjusting the clutch pedal, is it common for the clutch cable to be under tension AND for the arm to be pulled towards the front of the car?
Currently I have the nut "snug" but not pulling the arm, and even with the pedal fully depressed the clutch wont disengage. |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| Bermwolf wrote: |
Question: When adjusting the clutch pedal, is it common for the clutch cable to be under tension AND for the arm to be pulled towards the front of the car?
Currently I have the nut "snug" but not pulling the arm, and even with the pedal fully depressed the clutch wont disengage. |
Your clutch cable adjustment is to loose. Tighten the wing nut until there is no free play between the nut and the arm. Continue tightening until the free play is where you want it for the clutch engagement. You way to make sure the TO bearing does not rest on the pressure plate. This would prematurely wear out the bearing. You also want the clutch to fully disengage when the pedal is depressed.
I like my clutch fully disengaged when I press the pedal nearly to the floor. This means I have more free play at the top of the pedal movement than recommended. Just realize that as the clutch disc wears the free play at the top of pedal movement is reduced. For me, having more free play at the top means fewer free play adjustments and places the clutch disengagement where I like it.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Bermwolf
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Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| now if only it would go into gear and i could solve my electrical issue ☺ |
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Bermwolf
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Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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Still no luck. I tried to check all the grounds and nothing has improved. I did find that someone made a wedge for the turn signal bulb made out of a copper wire.
Thoughts? |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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Which electrical problems remain?
I was hoping your parking light problem was fixed by the realization that the red #30 wire that runs from the fuse box to headlight switch.
Have you confirmed which fuse is powering the corner lights when you turn the ignition ON. It should be fuse #12. Remove fuse #12 and the corner lamps should stop.
Question, have you removed the seat belt interlock relay from the fuse box?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Bermwolf
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Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
Which electrical problems remain?
I was hoping your parking light problem was fixed by the realization that the red #30 wire that runs from the fuse box to headlight switch.
Have you confirmed which fuse is powering the corner lights when you turn the ignition ON. It should be fuse #12. Remove fuse #12 and the corner lamps should stop.
Question, have you removed the seat belt interlock relay from the fuse box? |
I have tested what happens if I remove fuse 12. The result is no blinking and the turn signals do not function. The headlights still function as they should. Brakes lights as well.
I have also tested the turn signal relay. Putting in a brand new relay resulted in the same behavior, no change. |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:14 am Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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Here is your list of problems... which ones remain?
Currently the following happens
2:When you turn the key to "on" the hazards start flashing. The rear tail lights flash and the clicker for the hazards run. There is no way to disable this.
4:The lights do not turn on when you activate the switch.
6:Turning the key does not activate the starter.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Bermwolf
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2014
Posts: 17
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:22 am Post subject: Re: 1974 standard rewiring:Need some guidance |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
Here is your list of problems... which ones remain?
Currently the following happens
2:When you turn the key to "on" the hazards start flashing. The rear tail lights flash and the clicker for the hazards run. There is no way to disable this.
4:The lights do not turn on when you activate the switch.
6:Turning the key does not activate the starter. |
I GOT IT! Everything came down to 1 screwed up connection.
The 4way bus of black with white had a connection that was wrong. Having another set of eyes we found that we had wired something from the steering column incorrectly. When we swapped the connection EVERYTHING WORKS!!!
Thanks for the help Ashman, the secretly was 2 things. Using the removal of 12th fuse to diagnose, and trying to follow the front harness.
Car just needs an alignment and an interior and It will be ready for shows |
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