Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
vamram Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7276
Location: NOVA
vamram is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Hey Tim - did you do the swap to 20/50 yet? Results?

Victor
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tim Donahoe
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11739
Location: Redding, CA
Tim Donahoe is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Not yet.

I'm waiting for the ambient temperature to reach into the '90's. We've had mild temperatures since my first test, but the weatherman says we'll get into the '90's within the week.

In the meantime, the wife has had me painting four rooms and a hallway in the house.

I'll let you know how it goes in a few days.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

I pulled this pic from the '75 Canada Beetle Owner's Manual. (The '74 OM from the Technical section still showed single viscosity oils)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

While this may seem naïve, the German VW engineers would have tested what you described (when does the relief valve open) as part of their recommendations for selecting the oils based on the outside temps. The outside temps would affect both the viscosity of the cold oil in the engine but also the ability for the engine to get rid of excess heat (aircooled) and keep the engine running with sufficient oil pressure in an acceptable temp range.

So by selecting the proper oil based on the seasonal temps wouldn't you have an engine that flows oil to the cooler within an acceptable timeframe?
Notice that 20W/40 and 20W/50 cover a much wider range of temps than straight 30W or 40W, but if you lived in a desert area where temps never dropped below 70F, do you really need the range that 20W/50 offers? Wouldn't you WANT to run straight 40W so that the relief valve opened sooner (this assumes the 40W will thin out sooner than the 20W/50's 50W).

This of course only works for a "stockish" engine builds w/ the OE oil relief springs (not the HD aftermarket ones).
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vamram Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7276
Location: NOVA
vamram is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Temps here just got into the upper 80s and humid. An hour of stop and go traffic yesterday to go 13 miles on the way home from work and the oil light started coming on bright at idle rpms. Oil level was perfect, color not bad after 3.5k miles, so I changed it this a.m to 10w/40 and went on a nice mixed city-medium speed drive. It's 87* and humid. Engine temps got just over 200*, pressure steady around 10 PSI at idle, no oil light flicker anymore.

I ran castrol 20w/50 on 1st '72 standard in the mid 80s. I was living in Miami at the time so it was always hot or hot as hell. Never had any issues or oil light flicker, never blew oil cooler or crankshaft seals or soaked the clutch.
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vamram Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7276
Location: NOVA
vamram is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Ashman, I read my owner's manual this a.m before deciding on what grade to move to. The '72 manual lists only single weight oils and 40w for temps above 80. I couldn't find straight 40 at the flaps so I went with the 10-40. From the page you published, it looks like the 20-50 is spot on for this time of year where Tim lives.
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tim Donahoe
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11739
Location: Redding, CA
Tim Donahoe is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Ashman's chart completely contradicts my Bently (copyright 1979). My 1974 Owners Manual specifies only mono grades. I guess things were different in Canada in 1975--or else the FI engine bottom ends were different (which I doubt).

We'll have triple-digit ambient temperatures here in a few days, and I will change to the VR 20w50 for the oil-temperature test. If I go much over 192 degrees--using the same route I took with the thinner oil--then I'll know the answer--as far as the oil going to the cooler.

I'm pretty sure the PO didn't change the OEM oil pressure or oil control valves, since he gave me all VW-related parts he had when he sold me the bug; parts that included still-new-in-the-package aftermarket oil pressure and control springs and valves. Hopefully, he bought these parts and decided not to use them. Then again, the engine had only about 12,000 miles on it since the rebuild, and the rebuilder may have installed new aftermarket ones.

I will say this, Victor: my oil temperature of 192 degrees was achieved on a 96 degree day. Yours seems to be running hotter on cooler days. What's up with that? Rolling Eyes

I'll return with my findings ....

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
johnnypan
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 7431
Location: sackamenna
johnnypan is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

20/50 uses viscosity modifiers to alter the viscosity by temperature,basically 20wt when cold,50 when hot. The problem with multi viscosity oil is breakdown,when the viscosity modifier fails the oil stays at the lower viscosity.

If you mentally filter the hillbilly crap Tucker is right in his first post,he describes what happens with the cooler bypass and it effects on engine temp.

190 degree engine temps when the ambient is in the Redding summer range is perfectly acceptable,The operating temperature range of an aircooled engine varies more than a water cooled,there is no way to use the cooling system to accurately control the engine temp either by restricting air flow or altering flow through the oil cooler.,Vw uses metallurgy and design to counter this..for example,the cylinder studs and head torque allow for a great deal of engine expansion,the only use of cast steel besides the rotating assembly is the cylinders,the rest of the engine uses light weight aluminum alloys and magnesium to dissipate heat..

German engineering also assumed driver intelligence,they figured you wont flog the car like a rented mule when its hotter than hell outside..apparently you are what they envisioned,someone who understands the damage heat can cause...stop worrying and enjoy the car,if it fails rebuild it,they only last forever if you never drive it..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tim Donahoe
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11739
Location: Redding, CA
Tim Donahoe is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

I'm not worried; just curious. Curious as far as the effects the multi-viscosity oil, had on the valves opening.

We'll see in a few days.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mark tucker
Samba Member


Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
mark tucker is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

the control valves are more like pressure spike protectors when hot....and cold...and do aid in the oil coming up to temp sooner.
Im not a hillibilly, & not a drunk from sackomenner or sack o crap...... as for what diferent oil's will do in your engine.....there are somany different factors that you need to test it on yours to see. different oil pump sizes, clearances,added gallys,slotted lifters/bores,oil make,syn,dino,weights,springs,bores,piston sizes, cooling system,pully and so on .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
johnnypan
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 7431
Location: sackamenna
johnnypan is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
the control valves are more like pressure spike protectors when hot....and cold...and do aid in the oil coming up to temp sooner.
Im not a hillibilly, & not a drunk from sackomenner or sack o crap...... as for what diferent oil's will do in your engine.....there are somany different factors that you need to test it on yours to see. different oil pump sizes, clearances,added gallys,slotted lifters/bores,oil make,syn,dino,weights,springs,bores,piston sizes, cooling system,pully and so on .



literacy son,its a concept...folks take you seriously when you can spell...make your mom proud,go back and nail third grade,you can do it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
EVfun
Samba Member


Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5446
Location: Seattle
EVfun is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Does anyone know at what pressure the stock relief valve moves back and allows the oil into the main galley without going through the cooler? It seems like the stock system has a lot of variability since rpm is a big factor in oil pressure.

I just went reading the owners manuals posted here on theSamba and found no reference to multi-weight oil until the 1975 manual.

The 1975 manual lists 20w-50 as being acceptable from freezing up. The 1976 and 1979 manuals list 20w-50 weight oil as being acceptable from 0C to about 25C (32F to 77F) and only strait 40 weight is recommended above that. Both manuals show strait 30 weight as being acceptable from 5C to 25C (41F to 77F.)

1971-1974 manuals show 30 weight being acceptable from 0C to 40C (32F to 104F) and 40 weight being advised from 15C up (59F and hotter.) 1967-1970 manuals don't mention any oil heavier than 30 weight and recommend it from freezing up. I typically run strait 30 weight myself.
_________________
Wildthings wrote:
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tim Donahoe
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11739
Location: Redding, CA
Tim Donahoe is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

EV, that's the thing. The oil pressure valve is actuated at cold start up, and doesn't allow the oil to go to the cooler, due to its viscosity when cold. When (and that's the purpose of this thread) it closes, then it forces the oil into the cooler. My entire reason for this thread was to discover if a 20w50 (a summer-time weight oil in my opinion) allowed the oil into the cooler on hot summer days before the oil temperature got out of hand.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vamram Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7276
Location: NOVA
vamram is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Well Tim, I dont know what's up with mine because it's running 210*+ on a 92* day (yesterday and today.). Mabye i have to remove the old school rain guard...
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
neil68
Samba Member


Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
neil68 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
I pulled this pic from the '75 Canada Beetle Owner's Manual. (The '74 OM from the Technical section still showed single viscosity oils)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

While this may seem naïve, the German VW engineers would have tested what you described (when does the relief valve open) as part of their recommendations for selecting the oils based on the outside temps. The outside temps would affect both the viscosity of the cold oil in the engine but also the ability for the engine to get rid of excess heat (aircooled) and keep the engine running with sufficient oil pressure in an acceptable temp range.

So by selecting the proper oil based on the seasonal temps wouldn't you have an engine that flows oil to the cooler within an acceptable timeframe?
Notice that 20W/40 and 20W/50 cover a much wider range of temps than straight 30W or 40W, but if you lived in a desert area where temps never dropped below 70F, do you really need the range that 20W/50 offers? Wouldn't you WANT to run straight 40W so that the relief valve opened sooner (this assumes the 40W will thin out sooner than the 20W/50's 50W).

This of course only works for a "stockish" engine builds w/ the OE oil relief springs (not the HD aftermarket ones).


Even though this chart shows 20W50 to be acceptable down to -10 C., I can tell you from experience that it pours like tar at that temperature, and will not circulate easily in your engine. I use 5W30 or 10W30 in freezing conditions.
_________________
Neil.

Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
EVfun
Samba Member


Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5446
Location: Seattle
EVfun is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
While this may seem naïve, the German VW engineers would have tested what you described (when does the relief valve open) as part of their recommendations for selecting the oils based on the outside temps. The outside temps would affect both the viscosity of the cold oil in the engine but also the ability for the engine to get rid of excess heat (aircooled) and keep the engine running with sufficient oil pressure in an acceptable temp range.

So by selecting the proper oil based on the seasonal temps wouldn't you have an engine that flows oil to the cooler within an acceptable timeframe?
Notice that 20W/40 and 20W/50 cover a much wider range of temps than straight 30W or 40W, but if you lived in a desert area where temps never dropped below 70F, do you really need the range that 20W/50 offers? Wouldn't you WANT to run straight 40W so that the relief valve opened sooner (this assumes the 40W will thin out sooner than the 20W/50's 50W).

This of course only works for a "stockish" engine builds w/ the OE oil relief springs (not the HD aftermarket ones).


The other thing -- I think this would only apply if the stock thermostat system is in place. While that is a good thing to have, many Bugs (perhaps most) do not have a functioning thermostat system. It was missing on my Bug so I have collected the parts, but it won't be in the car until some future engine pull.
_________________
Wildthings wrote:
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26743
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:
Does anyone know at what pressure the stock relief valve moves back and allows the oil into the main galley without going through the cooler?


should be around 40-50 psi
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=280293&highlight=relief+valve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tim Donahoe
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11739
Location: Redding, CA
Tim Donahoe is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

So, I tried to buy some Valvoline VR 20w50 oil today in town, and they said it had been recalled. I tried two other places, and they were out.

Does anyone know who sells those little bottles of zinc to use when changing oil? I have no idea when they may have VR here in town, and I want to change my oil soon but want more protection for my flat tappets.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vamram Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7276
Location: NOVA
vamram is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Advanced Auto sells several brands - Lucas, STP, Rislone, others. I use QS Defy semi-synth oil, supposedly has high levels of it.

There's some debate out there about it how necessary zddp is outside of using it during engine break-in, not to mention it's environmental problems... then again, I should probably turn my Super into a trailer queen if I'm going to go down that road..... ain't happenin'!!!! Very Happy
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26743
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

ZDDP additive does not work as well as specially formulated oil, for a number of reasons.
One reason, is you can add things but it's not so simple to subtract them. Keep adding things, take a extended life oil full of stabilizers and detergents and add even MORE stuff and your headed to additive apocalypse Shocked

Vr1 is probably the most easy to find but there is also Joe Gibbs, Maxima, Brad penn, Amsoil. A SPEED SHOP will probably sell at least one brand of oil for classic cars.
In a pinch I'd rather mix 2 quarts of VR1 with 2 quarts of regular Valvoline than add STUFF to regular oil. So, I'm using oil as the additive!
want 15-40? you can mix 10-30 and 20-50. It's a little odd but does work.
Some of the companies even say it's ok to do that in the tech info.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tim Donahoe
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11739
Location: Redding, CA
Tim Donahoe is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil pressure and Oil Control valves vs Pressure Reply with quote

Well, I just tried Amazon. They have plenty of five-gallon jugs of VR--and ship to all states except California. Wth?

So I wrote to Valvoline to ask what's going on. Hopefully, they'll get back to me after Memorial Day.

By the way, Bughaus sells the little bottles of ZDDP; they're good for two oil changes.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.