OK, so it is not vapor lock

[MootPoint]

BUt it sure is odd. Twice in two days on the road in Colorado:

Drove from ABQ to PUeblo on Monday. Fierce head and cross winds. No problrms, van ran like a top. Tuesday, drove from Pueblo to Denver and west on I-70 to Idaho Springs, again fierce headwinds while I went west. Van worked great, but lots of third gear going up the canyon. Drove back to Golden just fine until I was two blocks from my brother's house and the van died and would not start. SPark OK, no fuel. I knew the tank was low, but not low enough, unless the headwinds really killed the milage. Added gas, still no start. QUit for the night, tried it again in th AM. Still no start so I put in the spare fuel pump from the PicknPull that I have carried for the last five years. BOOM, started right up. Problem solved, right?

Today, drove from Denver to Gunnison Same headwinds, maybe worse between between Denver to Frisco to Leadville to Salida and up and over Monarch Pass. MOre slow and third gear but no problems until 20 miles outside of Gunnison, 200 miles from the last fillup, same thing: no power, engine dies and won't restart. this time I call a tow truck and get flat-bedded into Gunnison, three hours later. AFter the truck leaves I try the starter and, BOOM, it starts right up.

All the backstory is to establish the pattern: The engine works hard and once it can relax, gas stops flowing (though not immediately...like an hour later.) The tank in down to the lower third of fuel.

I know that vapor lock is nearly impossible with a Vgon engine, but this has done the same thing with two diffenent (though used) fuel pumps. and other than one time on a very hot day in ABQ, it has never happened before. Temps today on top of Monarch Pass were probably in the 40s. there was still snow on the ground in Leadville. so it is not heat related.

I really want to finish this Colorado journey, and now the van is running again, but for how long? It is highly annoying and, to me, quite puzzling.

Other fun facts: Dropped and serviced the gas tank a couple years ago, so I don't think it's gringe. New plugs, just had the injectors serviced. I haven't tried the Heet or IsoHeet trick, yet. If it is not vapor lock, what is it? Water? fuel pressure? demons?

The floor is yours.
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1984 Westy with tencentlife power!

[Wildthings]

You could have a suction leak between the tank and the pump that gets worse as things heat up.

[MootPoint]

Thanks. I did find a probable suction leak - small crack down to the cords in the hose between the tank and the pump when I switched to the back up fuel pump back in Denver I replaced it so thre is all new hose there now. All the rest of the hose looks OK.

At least it's morning now and I'm not quite so crabby...
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1984 Westy with tencentlife power!

[davideric9]

When you added gas, did you fill it or just a a gallon or two. You could try filling the tank and see if that makes a difference. I found this in my tank with the same symptoms you have.

Actual findings, this is how it looked when I cut the tank open. The picture above is after I pulled it apart.

_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012)

[dobryan]

My thoughts too. Maybe try having a full tank when you go for the high heat/load scenario and see if the problem occurs even at 3/4 tank full. Good luck.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[MootPoint]

I dropped and serviced the tank and assorted hoses a couple years ago, so I think everything is clean. Both times the tank was down to about a third or less, so there might be something to that. WhenI added gas the first time, I put in about four gallons and it didnt seem to help until the following day whenI changed out the pump. Yesterday, the tank was probably at about a third full...I had deiven 204 milrs from the fill up. I had two gallons with me then and put them in, to no avail.

ANd three hours later it started again just fine. ANd i jusr started it this morning and it runs like a champ. Hmmmmmm.......
_________________
1984 Westy with tencentlife power!

[MootPoint]

[davideric9]

Just saying, fill it and see if that makes a difference. I had the van die on the way to work, pulled over and it restarted and drove 20 miles to work. Then it gave me more trouble and ran sometimes and didn't others. till it stranded me at the parking lot at work. I replaced lots of stuff in the lot until I had it towed home.

To be clear, the photos are of the inside of the tank. To be sure the fault was with the tank, I cut the old one in half after I replaced it. The hose separated from the metal fitting is so far inside the tank, you will never do any servicing of this part.

I found this problem by removing the supply hose between the tank and the pump and although fuel came out, it quickly stopped flowing.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012)

[MootPoint]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I'm going to keep the tank extra full and see if (or hope) that it helps. I have also written Samba member Miguel Pacheco in Durango, whom I have met before but I don't have his contact info. If any Durangoians know his phone # maybe you could PM it to me.

Thx
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1984 Westy with tencentlife power!

[Vanagon Nut]

I've had what was likely vapour lock on my '81. Different engine but...

Driving up a long hill, fuel pump screaming, (caveatting sound) pull over
van stops. Open gas cap "whoosh".

I was in the middle of nowhere, so felt this was acceptable to do; altered my
spare gas cap so it would allow air into tank.
In my case ambient heat, engine bay heat was likely the issue but I am also
curious of my EVAP system.

This likely is NOT the cause of your stalling issue but when
I dropped my tank for the second time, I noticed that a black EVAP hose was
pinched to frame. I'd like to think this happened on the PO's watch but....

Neil.

tank out, looking up at fill pipe hole in frame

same area different POV

_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[danfromsyr]

you swapped in a used/dry pump? no bueno.
these sound similar to when I had a fuel pump that would run 'tired' was even a new rockauto cheapie one too.
goto Autozone/napa and buy a pump for a 1989 ford Mustang or F250(F150) should be ~$100
since I can't for you, make sure you have the same size hoses/fittings in/out
else you'll need to adapt it up/down.
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[Wildthings]

[thebaz67]

Will the fuel flow directly from the tank if you disconnect the head end of the pump?

[Ahwahnee]

When it fails to start - is the fuel pump running? If not, a common fault is failure of the relay (inside the black box over the coil).

In my experience, these can fail with heat and recover with a cool-down. It can be misleading as you may think whatever you just did (e.g. replacing the pump) actually fixed things when all you really did was mess around long enough for the relay to recover.

[MootPoint]

Thanks for all the good info. Westy ran like a top yesterday and I'm now in Durango - snowed on me in Silverton last night - and so far all's well.

I have also discovered that my milage did plummet on my headwind/uphill crawls on Tuesday and Wednesday, down from itsnusual +- 20mpg down to about 14. And we all know how accurate the Vgon gas gauge us. I always reset the trip odo and fill up at about 250 mi. I think i just ran the tank dry. Thing is, I've been mountain driving this West for ten years and I've never run it out of petrol under any condition. So this caught me totally off guard.

I am going to replace the pump when I get home and keep filling at a out 150 mi, keeping track of the mpg and keep my fingers crossed.

thanks again for all the help and advice!
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1984 Westy with tencentlife power!

[MootPoint]

Thanks, all of you.

I'm back on my NM mountaintop now, having survived both the trip and the second...um...pit stop plus new snow in Silverton. I wasn't around WiFi much so now that I'm home I'm just now getting back to replies among the e-valanche of email awaiting my return.

I think the problem was not the fuel pump at all but the simple fact that I ran out of gas twice due to the combination of both the incredible headwinds as that cold front moved through Colorado last week and driving over mountain passes. Normally I fill up at about 250 miles (about 19 mpg) on a range of about 300 miles - I don't trust the funky gas gauge so I reset the odometer at every fillup - but the first time it died at 240 miles, the second time at about 200. I think I had been getting about 12-14mpg or less. Both times I thought I still had go-juice, or at least the milage to get to go-juice.

I drove home from central Colorado yesterday with no problem whatsoever, crusin' right along down I-25 to home, keeping an eye on the odo and topping off at about 150 miles each time. I was back to 17-19 mpg again.

What's odd is that I've been driving that Westy for 10 years under all kinds of conditions including wind and hills and never once have I run it dry. So when it did happen (twice) I immediately decided it was "something else" and not being smart enough to top off the tank with the wind factored in. I am going to replace the fuel pump anyway. I'm sure it's due.

Lesson (re)learned: Occam's Razor:"One should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed." Or put another way, "The simplest solution is usually the right one." Or put in Westy terms, "It was the headwinds and the grades, Dumbo."

But I sure appreciate all the help and advice from the Sambanistas. It's nice to have all of you looking over my shoulder!

MootPoint Chris
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1984 Westy with tencentlife power!

[danfromsyr]

Glad it all worked out (for the most part) for you.

last Oct when we came down for the ABQ balloon festival and a trip up the million dollar highway.. I travel with another vanagon camper friend. who gets slightly better mpg and likes to take his tank to the very near bottom.. so I installed an Aux tank for the peace of mind..
I know you live at elevation in Sandia park, but perhaps there was higher (thinner air) elevations your mpg suffered from as well?

fyi, we're starting to consider another trip NY to ABQ in fall 2017.. maybe wave when we're in the area.
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[MootPoint]

Thanks, Dan.

I waived at you (I guess it was you and another Westy with NY plates) during your Balloon Fiesta travels but you were probably too busy dodging wacky NM drivers.

I had not considered the altitude/thin air issue before. Has anyone ever done a study or have any data on that? An interesting idea.

Holler when you are down this way next year. I believe you stayed at an RV camp that's about five miles from my place. I'll bring the beer.
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1984 Westy with tencentlife power!

[danfromsyr]

well there's less air and %## less power at each 1,000ft altitude.
so with less power you get less efficient.
I know you have a variety of altitudes in your area, but maybe for not as long as your trip in CO.

yeah it was 99% likely that was us, we stayed at the Turquoise trail campground, was nice enough. we didn't get to the Sandia Crest as the girls we're doing well over 9kft
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[Bassyaks]

Check your Vacuum Canister, it could be creating a vacuum inside the fuel tank.