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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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Chris Walden
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2010
Posts: 147
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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Hmmm. Well he certainly has a point about the automatic equipped cars with their paucity of torque. But I do raise an eyebrow over his assertion that VWoA was after a piece of the luxury market. People who bought type 4's (and Saab 99's and Audi 100's and Volvo 240's and BMW's, etc.) were an entirely different sort of buyer than your American luxobarge buyer of the time. They (the type 4) were certainly one of the more eccentric choices in that field of eccentric cars. As for myself, I purchased my first one, a '73 2 door (yes, Ray, marathon blue) in '84 precisely because it was an eccentric automobile. If it hadn't turned out to be such a terrific car I probably wouldn't have bought the other two pieces of crap that took up space in my garage while I (reluctantly) wrenched on them. But I still love the looks (the American industrial designer Brookes Stevens did the 412 redesign) and would purchase another--manually equipped-- in a heartbeat if I knew it to be fully sorted. But, you know? Haven't seen one in my area in ages.
Chris |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:17 am Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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| Chris Walden wrote: |
Hmmm. Well he certainly has a point about the automatic equipped cars with their paucity of torque. But I do raise an eyebrow over his assertion that VWoA was after a piece of the luxury market. People who bought type 4's (and Saab 99's and Audi 100's and Volvo 240's and BMW's, etc.) were an entirely different sort of buyer than your American luxobarge buyer of the time. They (the type 4) were certainly one of the more eccentric choices in that field of eccentric cars. As for myself, I purchased my first one, a '73 2 door (yes, Ray, marathon blue) in '84 precisely because it was an eccentric automobile. If it hadn't turned out to be such a terrific car I probably wouldn't have bought the other two pieces of crap that took up space in my garage while I (reluctantly) wrenched on them. But I still love the looks (the American industrial designer Brookes Stevens did the 412 redesign) and would purchase another--manually equipped-- in a heartbeat if I knew it to be fully sorted. But, you know? Haven't seen one in my area in ages.
Chris |
Oh I agree....that the author of this piece got some of the details right.
My first car was a 1972 411 four door with automatic. It had 55k miles on it and it was only 7 years old......so I considered it fairly new. It had really poor torque off the line.
Oddly....during tweaking and tuning there were moments when you could see that it was the transmission and torque converter really keeping the car down to below adequate.
It was not until years later when I finally got hold of a four speed model that I realized how much the automatic was REALLY holding the car back.
That.....and the emissions tuning.....and a bit of packaging.
One would really have to be cruel to think that the German engineers were so stupid that they could not figure out how to get 10 more hp out of the 1.7 or 1.8 liters.....just with some tuning, better exhaust and a few bits and pieces.
Luxury.....well......not so much in materials .... ompared to the fluff in American cars at the time..... even though they were quality. Having read much of the sales literature of the time.....it was being touted as VWs luxury car by VWOA.....if no one else.
Compared to other VWs before and of the day.....it was more luxurious. It had very nice seats, huge room, was more quiet had the automatic and had heat!.
My issue with comparisons like the article I linked to....which was obviously made for Facebook consumption.......is the article title......"10 worst cars ever made".
There were plenty of far worse cars of the 70s and 80s to populate that list than the type 4.
The really interesting thing I have found........is over the years as I have bought the occasional 411 or 412....whether for the whole vehicle or for a chassis that is too far gone but I need the parts.....until recently most of them have been from private owners who were either first or second owners and who had kept the car either stored or covered because they did not want to part with it.
Speaking to most of these first and second owners......who had driven the vehicle considerably or had ridden around in it as kids as it was owned by a parent.......virtually all of them had nothing but good things to say. Yes.....some complaints about this item or that item.....but almost all I have met loved the car.
Comments like....great ride, fantastic to drive....lots of fun. Most had kept the cars around because they either hoped to get them fixed one day and or because the car was too expensive when new to just discard.
The vast majority of the cars that are coming available now in the past few years are getting to be cars cleared out of fields after estate sales that have sat too long.....usually Craigslist finds from people getting rid of things......or cars that have always had issues and have changed hands many times.
Ray |
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Chris Walden
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Joined: June 03, 2010
Posts: 147
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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| Yes, the seats. The 411 was THE first new car that I ever felt compelled to stop in at a new car dealership to sit in. I remember being so impressed worth those CHAIRS. Took 10 plus years to finally acquire one. Chris |
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Chris Walden
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2010
Posts: 147
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:27 am Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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As I was saying (sorry, I was at the Fort Myers airport the other day and we boarded earlier than expected); Yes, I think that this guy gave the type 4 rather short shrift. After all, what 4 cylinder cars of the era coupled with the ubiquitous 3 speed slush box had great acceleration? Well---in all reality I wouldn't know because I didn't drive any of them.
My first experience with the automatic type 4 came with a '74 station wagon which replaced my '73 2 door after my brother backed it off of a gravel road (rather violently} and into a tree. I suffered the automatic for a period before swapping in the salvaged 4 speed. (which I still have, by the way--the transmission.)
Anyway, his comments on the OTHER cars were rather humorous and, I thought, with a few exceptions, fairly informed. Not so OUR car which he depicts in the photo as the 2 door and then goes on to diss chiefly for it's anemic acceleration as though they were all automatic equipped.
Chris |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:41 am Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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| Chris Walden wrote: |
As I was saying (sorry, I was at the Fort Myers airport the other day and we boarded earlier than expected); Yes, I think that this guy gave the type 4 rather short shrift. After all, what 4 cylinder cars of the era coupled with the ubiquitous 3 speed slush box had great acceleration? Well---in all reality I wouldn't know because I didn't drive any of them.
My first experience with the automatic type 4 came with a '74 station wagon which replaced my '73 2 door after my brother backed it off of a gravel road (rather violently} and into a tree. I suffered the automatic for a period before swapping in the salvaged 4 speed. (which I still have, by the way--the transmission.)
Anyway, his comments on the OTHER cars were rather humorous and, I thought, with a few exceptions, fairly informed. Not so OUR car which he depicts in the photo as the 2 door and then goes on to diss chiefly for it's anemic acceleration as though they were all automatic equipped.
Chris |
Oh....totally agree. He had pretty good humor and decent accuracy. It seemed to me......that with the more exotic cars like ours....the author probably had 0 real life experience with them and was going off other things written.
My issues with the automatic trans was not so bad....performance wise. I think this is mainly to do with where I was driving the cars.
With my first one it was mainly in Oklahoma and some of Texas. Flat.....long distances and good highway speeds.
When I was in-town driving.....there was little medium speeds in between highway speed and say 35 mph.
Later in Atlanta....and in Dallas.....big cities....the automatic was miserable. No power except north of 3200 rpm in second with a well tuned engine. I also disliked the finicky kick down switch in wet weather.
I also disliked finding out about the transfer case to differential seal and fluid mixture failure mode that cost me two transmissions before I figured it out.
My first four speed was also salvage from a late lunch 1972 411 two door I found wrecked in the junkyard. Took all the pieces. Drove that for most of 100k miles.
Ray |
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Chris Walden
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Joined: June 03, 2010
Posts: 147
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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Can't remember how many miles my '73 had on it before my brother packed it in. It was in pristine condition though, when I first bought it with D-jet intact. Took it on many far ranging trips and never had a problem. One time, leaving Road Atlanta race course, I passed a 911 going up hill-----the fact that his girlfriend was driving and probably had it stuck in fourth----well, makes for great telling anyway.
Oh, and another thing I happened to think of: not only did the 2 dr. come standard with the manual transmission but, if I'm not mistaken,---correct me if my memory is feeble---the rear sway bar was standard. So the two door was pitched more at the sports sedan market than the luxo market. I also transferred that from my wrecked 2 dr. onto my station wagon.
So Ray, what are you doing engine wise on your project?
Chris |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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| Chris Walden wrote: |
Can't remember how many miles my '73 had on it before my brother packed it in. It was in pristine condition though, when I first bought it with D-jet intact. Took it on many far ranging trips and never had a problem. One time, leaving Road Atlanta race course, I passed a 911 going up hill-----the fact that his girlfriend was driving and probably had it stuck in fourth----well, makes for great telling anyway.
Oh, and another thing I happened to think of: not only did the 2 dr. come standard with the manual transmission but, if I'm not mistaken,---correct me if my memory is feeble---the rear sway bar was standard. So the two door was pitched more at the sports sedan market than the luxo market. I also transferred that from my wrecked 2 dr. onto my station wagon.
So Ray, what are you doing engine wise on your project?
Chris |
The rear sway bar came standard on both the two door and four door sedans.
I never figured out why they didn't put it on the wagon.
I did the same thing with my two wagons. The mounts and holes for the sway bars are already in the wagons....so it was easy to bolt the sway bar in. Ray |
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tootype2crazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 1276
Location: St. Louis Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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The problem with ATs of the era in general was the lack of a torque converter lock up for the final gear. That causes torque losses to the liquid inside at high speed cruising with the last gear at below engine rpm ratio-wise. That makes for a pretty significant hp loss for a relatively heavy vehicle with relatively low horsepower for it's class. The bus with the automatic was even worse. I still think the cars are really cool, though. Definitely the most modern designed air-cooled VW ever made. I wish they would have continued advancing rear-engined, air-cooled technology but the market didn't allow it and they had bought Audi and used their designs for the very successful dasher and golf and never looked back.
_________________
air-cooled or nothing for me
1978 Sunroof Deluxe Bus (daily driver)
1978 Transporter (mom's, making into a camper)
1970 Single Cab 2.1 turbo/EFI 6 Rib, 78 front beam, vanagon backing plates on rear (project)
2001 GTI VR6 (wife's) |
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Chris Walden
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2010
Posts: 147
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:32 am Post subject: Re: I hate these comparisons |
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A VW enthusiast, eh (your "stable")? It's interesting in the classifieds section to see many, many times another VW of some stripe in the background.
Chris |
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