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Joey Anchors Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2014 Posts: 30 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:21 am Post subject: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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I am planning to buy a late '50s bug with a 36hp and already plan on running an Abarth muffler with a bus distributor.
I got to thinking about carb upgrades and was wondering if I could run a single 32PBIC carb as I am trying to stay away from the WW dual port setup and dual carbs as this will be a daily driver.
Anyone use a single 32PBIC on a 36hp? |
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Robert Chambers Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2005 Posts: 216
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Joey I have not used a 32 but I have used a 30 PICT on a daily driver 36 HP. I have a new 30 PIC for sale here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1755608
It may be a good fit for you?
Bob _________________ '63 OG 117 Herbie Replica
'56 Euro Oval Deluxe
'52 Standard Zwitter
'63 OG 117 |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69734 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Not exactly what you are asking but my '55 had a 32 PCI-1 on it when I got it:
It ran really rich and was hard to start.
When it got running it drove fine though.
To be honest I didn't want to mess with rebuilding it or figuring out why it was so hard to start so I installed a correct 28 PCI.
The intake manifold carb. holes were slotted since the base is larger, like a later carb. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
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Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Joey Anchors Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2014 Posts: 30 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys I'll look into both of those as options. |
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tobiasax Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 202 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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I think a 32 isn't of much use without additional work on heads and intake.
In the mid 50's Okrasa had a singel carb kit. It did use the Okrasa heads and intaktes similar to post-1971 type 1 engines. The carb was a 32 size, I guess it was a PCI. _________________ __________________________________________ |
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Robert Chambers Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2005 Posts: 216
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Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:01 am Post subject: |
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When I had a 30 PICT daily driver 36, I installed a 010 distributor and flared tail pipes. Those changes gave more power. I am sure head work and a cam would help. _________________ '63 OG 117 Herbie Replica
'56 Euro Oval Deluxe
'52 Standard Zwitter
'63 OG 117
Last edited by Robert Chambers on Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joey Anchors Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2014 Posts: 30 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Robert Chambers wrote: |
When I rad a 30 PICT daily driver 36, I installed a 010 distributor and flared tail pipes. Those changes gave more power. I am sure head work and a cam would help. |
Hmm looks like 30pict might be what I am after... |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Robert Chambers wrote: |
When I had a 30 PICT daily driver 36, I installed a 010 distributor and flared tail pipes. Those changes gave more power. I am sure head work and a cam would help. |
Can you share information about how the 30 PICT was jetted? The difference between a 1500cc single port and a 1200 36 horse is quite a bit and I suspect some jetting changes would make this wake up. The 24mm venturi could flow 25% more than the 21.5mm venturi of the 28 PCI. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Robert Chambers Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2005 Posts: 216
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:30 am Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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That Bug was a '53 Oval daily driver back in the mid 70's. I drove back and forth to work 20 miles each way. Pedal to the metal shift etc. was the way to keep up with traffic. It ran a little rich but not enough to put gas in the oil. The carb had original jets. I think the rich condition helped to keep the engine cool. I could get it up to 65 MPH down hill with the wind. I also seem to remember I had 7:00X15 rear tires. That helped to keep engine rpms down.
Cheers, Bob _________________ '63 OG 117 Herbie Replica
'56 Euro Oval Deluxe
'52 Standard Zwitter
'63 OG 117 |
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Kjell Roar Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008 Posts: 1326 Location: Norway
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:30 am Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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Remember that the 30 PICT-1 was both on 1300 and 1500.
Think they have different jetting, so something around the 1300 jetting should be a good start. _________________ I got a historic car, every scratch got a history...
My car, Aug. 4th, 1955 / an early 56: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=610438 |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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Kjell Roar wrote: |
Remember that the 30 PICT-1 was both on 1300 and 1500.
Think they have different jetting, so something around the 1300 jetting should be a good start. |
That was an interesting bit of reading. All 1300 engines ran a 125 main jet, all 1500 engines ran either 117.5 or 120. The smaller engine was jetted richer. The smaller 28 PICT on the smaller 40 horse ran 122.5 main jets.
The 1300 engines without a power enrichment system all ran a 125z air correction jet. The 1300 engines with the the power enrichment circuit ran much leaner air correction jets, either 155 or 170 and all used a check ball in the power enrichment circuit. The 1500 engines all had a power enrichment circuit and ran 125 to 135 air correction jets. Ghias seem to run slightly leaner (bigger number) air correction jets than Bugs. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Kjell Roar Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008 Posts: 1326 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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EVfun wrote: |
Kjell Roar wrote: |
Remember that the 30 PICT-1 was both on 1300 and 1500.
Think they have different jetting, so something around the 1300 jetting should be a good start. |
That was an interesting bit of reading. All 1300 engines ran a 125 main jet, all 1500 engines ran either 117.5 or 120. The smaller engine was jetted richer. The smaller 28 PICT on the smaller 40 horse ran 122.5 main jets.
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Probably due to the venturi effect, more vacuum with bigger displacement, dont need so big jet to get the same amount of fuel.
Because it is the vacuum that sucks the petrol _________________ I got a historic car, every scratch got a history...
My car, Aug. 4th, 1955 / an early 56: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=610438 |
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2103
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:55 am Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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Kjell Roar wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
Kjell Roar wrote: |
Remember that the 30 PICT-1 was both on 1300 and 1500.
Think they have different jetting, so something around the 1300 jetting should be a good start. |
That was an interesting bit of reading. All 1300 engines ran a 125 main jet, all 1500 engines ran either 117.5 or 120. The smaller engine was jetted richer. The smaller 28 PICT on the smaller 40 horse ran 122.5 main jets.
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Probably due to the venturi effect, more vacuum with bigger displacement, dont need so big jet to get the same amount of fuel.
Because it is the vacuum that sucks the petrol |
no, it's because of the additional gas that the power jet provides |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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Slow 1200 wrote: |
Kjell Roar wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
Kjell Roar wrote: |
Remember that the 30 PICT-1 was both on 1300 and 1500.
Think they have different jetting, so something around the 1300 jetting should be a good start. |
That was an interesting bit of reading. All 1300 engines ran a 125 main jet, all 1500 engines ran either 117.5 or 120. The smaller engine was jetted richer. The smaller 28 PICT on the smaller 40 horse ran 122.5 main jets.
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Probably due to the venturi effect, more vacuum with bigger displacement, dont need so big jet to get the same amount of fuel.
Because it is the vacuum that sucks the petrol |
no, it's because of the additional gas that the power jet provides |
No, even the 1300 motors with the power jet (not sold in the U.S.) still had a 125 main jet. The air correction jet for the main jet went from 125z to 155z or 170z when the power jet was added, so the main circuit would lean out far more at high air flow and then the power circuit would take up the difference. I wonder if the later 1300 non U.S. engines in Bugs had different gearing.
A lot of 1500cc engines used a 60 idle jet while all the 1300 engines used a 55. I think getting that back to a 55 (or perhaps even a 50) would be an important step in running one of the 30mm carbs on a 36 horse. I'm not sure why the power jet is really needed or helpful. A similar effect can be done by putting a smaller air correction jet in the main circuit.
It seems clear that jetting is a funny thing. In theory vacuum, and so fuel flow, in the main circuit would follow air flow through the venturi. If that was true the idle circuit and power jet would only be their to make the mixture richer at those extremes. What seems to actual happen is that the main circuit delivers way to little fuel at low air flow, goes through a range where it is about right, and then tries to go way to rich. The air correction jet adds air to the fuel in the main circuit so it will not go rich, but my guess is that that system eventually pushes that to far the other way (lean) if the air flow get significantly higher still. So the power jet comes in to make it richer again, and a little extra at that for top end power. If the air flow is not that high (smaller engine) the effect can be simulated with a smaller air correction jet. I think... _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26302 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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EVfun wrote: |
No, even the 1300 motors with the power jet (not sold in the U.S.) still had a 125 main jet. |
Actually, the non-USA 1300SPs made from 1967 through 1970, their 30PICT-1 and 30PICT-2 carburetors continued to lack the power fuel (enrichment)system.
The only exception I find in my documents is on Autosticks, from what the (12/72) charts I have indicate, the same carburetor used on 1500 Autostocks in 1969 and 1970 were also used on the few 1300 models with Autostick. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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glutamodo wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
No, even the 1300 motors with the power jet (not sold in the U.S.) still had a 125 main jet. |
Actually, the non-USA 1300SPs made from 1967 through 1970, their 30PICT-1 and 30PICT-2 carburetors continued to lack the power fuel (enrichment)system.
The only exception I find in my documents is on Autosticks, from what the (12/72) charts I have indicate, the same carburetor used on 1500 Autostocks in 1969 and 1970 were also used on the few 1300 models with Autostick. |
This is the jetting chart I was using. It look like the 1300 in the Ghia came with a power circuit and something later. The carb base numbers in question are 46-1, 81-1, and 171-1. Here is another old thread on the subject.
If I was just guessing, I would suggest trying a 30 PIC(T) in a 1200 with a 127.5 main. The idea is simple. The 1500 in a Bug runs a 120 main, the 1300 with power circuit runs a 125 -- it looks like about 2.5 sizes per 100cc. Is there a good "how to" thread on rejetting stock Solex carbs for modified engines? _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26302 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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Ah, yeah, I see that one now. That's actually my chart.
That was extracted from my always-evolving master chart of carbs and distributors. I later added an important bit of data for that particular carb, and that's another rare exception I forgot to mention above, it was only used with the special order dual air filter option.
Here's the VW chart for 66-70 on the normal 1300 engine, none of them show Anreicherung (Enrichment). These charts do sometimes have inaccuracies or omissions in them, but I've had a couple of confirmations about those late 60s 1300 carbs lacking the enrichment circuit.
_________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp with single 32PBIC? |
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Looks like the Ghia was the only 1300 engines to get a power circuit. All the T1 1300 and 1500 engines used a 55 pilot jet. All the T1 1500 engines used a 120 main. All of the 1300 engines used a 125 main, the Bug without a power circuit but a smaller air correction jet and the Ghia with a leaner air correction jet and the power jet.
That would lead me to guess the smaller the engine the richer the main jet. Also, an engine modified to have a "pulsier" flow should ask for a richer main jet. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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