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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:11 am Post subject: Engine whine on and off |
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| I've mentioned in a previous post about a engine whine, but haven't figured it out yet But yesterday as I was going down the road I discovered I could turn the whine on and off with the gas pedal. With pressure it would whine, let up on the foot pedal, and the whine would stop. Got any suggestions? Bob |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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Bad bearing somewhere in the transmission or final drive?
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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Sjbartnik.....is probabaly correct.
There is one other possibility.....and this really depends on what the whine sounds like......is that you might get some sort of whine from the camshaft when the thrust bearing is starting to get worn. Its a possibility is all I am saying.....its also a stretch.
This type of on/off whine is usually from the differential. Specifically. ...excessive lash between ring and pinion gear.
Whether its improper pinion to ring location or improper ring to pinion location....I have fo look in my notes......but I believe that whining on acceleration is due to slack/movement in the pinion gear relationship to the ring gear.
What causes this?
1. Most common is a pinion bearing starting to go out or is far enough along that the pjnion shaft s shifting fore and aft.
You need to take care of this,before the gear wears.
2. The pinion shaft bearing preload adjuster has loosened.....rare......super rare.....never seen it happen. But it could happen.
3. For some reason.....excessive wear in the pinion or pinion shaft bearings.....check that you have no differential oil contamination from the automatic section if this is an automatic.
A way to get a better handle on this sound ...is to remove the rear seat cushion. Then remove the black plate held with three screws. This plate should be there for manual transmissions so you can remove the mainshaft prior to engine removal.
You can drive around with the back seat out and the plate removed and hear exactly if this is a trans issue. Ray |
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Lars S
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Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 786
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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Does it whine at all when standing still just reving the engine?
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| Lars S wrote: |
Does it whine at all when standing still just reving the engine?
/Lars S |
Ooh...good point! Also I looked at the original question he had back in October. He has an automatic.
If as Lars asked, it has a whine in neutral...it can be a host of items in the automatic. It can be pump drive, it can be a number of bearings or bushings.....but if its quiet in neutral....and only happens on heel and toe while driving...its a differential issue.
Also...just saying.....look for obvious things. There is so much under these cars....I had a whine many years ago that I was dreading to be a trans issues because I had trans issues earlier...and it turned out to be one of the many hoses dragging on a drive shaft.
Also...for those reading this who have a manual....in neutral or with clutch in...a whirring sound can also be the reverse idler gear maladjusted and dragging against the gear face. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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+Thanks for your thoughts-----well it doesn't whine while in idle and parked.
I did hear a slight whining sound----so slight I had to strain to hear it, and of course I was straining to hear a whine. So I would say it doesn't whine unless up to speed down the road. UP and down on the gas pedal didn't produce the whine. Bob |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| In my previous post I meant when pushing up and down on the gas pedal in idle, not going down the road. Going at road speed I still have the whine which can be turned on and off with the gas pedal. Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| In my previous post I meant when pushing up and down on the gas pedal in idle, not going down the road. Going at road speed I still have the whine which can be turned on and off with the gas pedal. Bob |
So....this is not clear.
You have the whine when pushing the gas pedal.....when sitting still idleing......in neutral or park I assume?
And.....it whines when driving at road speed......and starts and stops when you push on the gas pedal at road speed?
The second one still sounds like differential......
But........I would warm the car up, turn it off and remove the alternator belt and drive for about,10 minutes and see if the sound changes. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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Yep I was a little confusing in my post, but you've figured it out correctly.
Interesting------ I was thinking about the belt too. Are you suggesting it may be the belt making the noise---maybe not tight enough? Another thought I had along that idea was would it be possible the air elbow to the alternator could be leaking, cause a whining noise?
OK---I'll try removing the belt idea. Bob |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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It doesn't hurt to try running the engine without the alternator belt just to eliminate one possible source of noise (i.e. alternator bearings).
If the belt was not tight enough and was slipping, you would get more of a squeal than a whine and you would be able to make it squeal louder by turning all your lights on (increasing the electrical load thus making the alternator harder to physically turn).
I don't think so on your air elbow theory. That would produce the noise based solely on engine rpm (i.e. cooling air flow) and would not be dependent on load.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| The alternator is a new one, which I installed about a year ago, and the car has been driven less than 300 miles since then. But----even new parts can be defective. Thanks for your comments about the elbow, I agree, and I thought I was reaching far out on that one. Bob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| The alternator is a new one, which I installed about a year ago, and the car has been driven less than 300 miles since then. But----even new parts can be defective. Thanks for your comments about the elbow, I agree, and I thought I was reaching far out on that one. Bob |
Sjbartnik noted exactly what I was getting at. It may be the alternator bearings. Also make note that the belt is not way too tight.....because that will cause a whirring from the alternator bearings even if they are new.
Also make sure the alterator bracket is not flexing and causing the pulley to slightly misalign when its tight.
Also you note that its new as of last year. Where did you get it and brand?
Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| I Bought it from O'Reily here in Coweta, OK. Don't remember the brand. So fat it's working great. Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| I Bought it from O'Reily here in Coweta, OK. Don't remember the brand. So fat it's working great. Bob |
Yes.....electrically it can be working perfectly. ....but what we are worried about is either a shaft bearing that is either poorly lubricated or was bad, or not replaced during the rebuild (I am assuming its a rebuild)......or a bearing that has either too much OD allowing the shaft to cock a couple thousandtgs causing some slight dragging on the armature.
Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| The belt isn't too tight----in fact I was wondering if it might be too loose. I've yet to remove the belt to see if the noise still exists. Also I haven't removed the panel you suggested under the rear seat to check for the whine. Is that panel on all cars or just the manual trans,? Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Engine whine on and off |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| The belt isn't too tight----in fact I was wondering if it might be too loose. I've yet to remove the belt to see if the noise still exists. Also I haven't removed the panel you suggested under the rear seat to check for the whine. Is that panel on all cars or just the manual trans,? Bob |
Its "should" be on all cars. I say "should"....because you know how VW was with these cars.....little things changing for mysterious reasons.
But...the 411/412 chassis was neither automatic or manual specific. It was made for both with all of the underpinnings and stamping's in place.
Some for instance:
Starting at the trunk....under the firewall carpet you will notice stamped indentations for the opening for the pushrod for power brakes and you will notice all the same indentations on the right side of the car inside and in the trunk to allow for right hand drive pedal mounts, steering column and power brake.
The brake pedal cluster has all of the holes...threaded...to allow installing a clutch master cylinder in minutes. It also has the ability to install the clutch pedal with just the addition of the longer cross shaft and sprint...the holes are already in the part for that.
The steel hold down loops and holes are already in the body and under the back seat and in the tunnel for the hydraulic clutch fluid tube. The exit from the tunnel for the clutch slave hydraulic line.....is there on all automatic cars...plugged with a plastic or rubber plug and covered with undercoating.
The variants/wagons came without a rear sway bar but the threaded mounting holes are already in the rear beam and the outer sway bar link holes are already in the trailing arms...but are plugged with rubber plugs.
As far as I "remember" all of my 411/412 have had the plate under the rear seat. In fact....my first four type 4's were all automatics from the factory. From the second one on....I converted them to the 004. It was pretty easy. About a day when you have the parts.
The last one...my current car....was/is only the 2nd one I have owned that came with a 004 from the factory.
The other one...sadly was a 1971 411 two door saloon and was so far gone all I could do was strip it for parts. Ray |
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